Scylla is a liar (or is suffering paranoid make the call)

Scylla, you are a liar. And if you do not think you are lying, then you are delusional.

Folks, I have never been one to take anything to the pit. I’d just as soon stop interacting with someone as do that. I’ve had an awful lot of downright hatefulness thrown at me here, but it was all in the form of opinion, which can be ignored.

But Scylla has gone several steps too far by making entirely ugly and vicious statements about me that are entirely false, and I feel I must set it straight.

It’s actually all quite boring and stupid, you don’t have to take time out of your lives to read it. I make no claim that it will be the most fascinating Pit thread you’ve ever opened. I only ask if you read it if you find yourself wondering if accusations Scylla recently tossed around about me had any basis in reality.

Here’s the story:
Scylla and I had had some pretty heated debates here and there, but we had mostly learned to co-exist peacefully.

Then, in In MPSIMS – (a forum for sharing, not debating) I put up this thread, in which I discuss the most horrifying thing that ever happened to me and invite others to share their stories about the most horrifying thing that ever happened to them.

I made it very clear in the thread that this was a nightmare for me.

Scylla comes along and decides to let me know that according to some buddy of his, I didn’t have the experience I know I had. Actually, I just imagined or dreamed it, and that having such an experience was impossible.

This would be offensive no matter what the circumstance, but in addition to the experience itself, one of the things that made the whole experience even more awful (which Scylla didn’t know at first) was being told at the time, by the people responsible, that I had imagined it, when I knew I certainly had not. So having Scylla come along and re-do what had already been done to me once was very, very obnoxious and upsetting to me.

But I responded to him and explained exactly that, plus gave him chapter, verse and cites about why he was wrong. (And remember, folks, this wasn’t Great Debates in the first place. Why did he feel the need to come along and try to tell me that I was imagining things? What the fuck was he trying to prove?) I dropped him this email after I posted:

If he’d had a lick of common sense, he would have recognized by this time that it was NOT cool for him to argue this point with me. I hadn’t invited it, and to top it off, he was ** flat out wrong **. He had offended me without reason.

So he comes and reads about how being told I imagined it had made the experience even worse. Reads all the facts backing up my own experience being real (including the nurse who was there assuring me privately that it had happened). Sees the cites.

And still “Stands behind what he said earlier”.

Well, I shouldn’t have allowed it to be, but this topic is a big one for me, and this just infuriated me no end. Really, the gall was amazing. And he was sticking to his story based on some friend of his, HERE, on the STRAIGHT DOPE, land of “show me a cite”, where we fight ignorance.

Well, it was then that I really began to understand that what I had suspected about Scylla already was true: the guy just couldn’t stand to be wrong.

But he was, and I had proved it. I had LIVED it, I shouldn’t HAVE to fucking prove it, but I did. This wasn’t a matter of opinon, this wasn’t a matter of ideology, this was FACT, both in my life and in the medical community. And he’s telling me I imagined it. Yeah, I was pretty damn ticked.

Uncle Beer came in and told us that if we were going to debate this, that we had best take it to Great Debates.

Well, it isn’t debatable. It’s a medical fact. (As we came to learn in that very thread CECIL has written on the topic and backed me 100%. ) The only person obnoxiously choosing to debate me on my helllish reality was Scylla. And I half suspected that he was doing it just to be nasty. So I wrote the following email to him privately:

And how did Scylla respond? Well, he’d probably get all weird if I published his words without his permission, so I shall give a paraphrase:

"If you don’t wanna debate it, don’t bring it up. If you have something else you want to say, then say it on the Straight Dope message board.

Normally I appreciate email privacy, but if you contact me with this attitude again I shall go whine to the board administrators about it."

Which struck me as strange. What exactly was it he had a problem with? That I let him know privately that I was angry with him for offending me, and doing so with wrong information to boot? Whatever, I didn’t answer him, he obviously wasn’t up for being communicated with.

So life goes on, including the aforementioned revelation about Cecil’s input.

AT NO TIME does Scylla EVER confess that he might be SLIGHTLY off base in ANY regard. Not in choosing to debate the topic, not in his “facts”. Any shred of respect I might ever have had for Scylla as a poster is so gone…

Well, some of you might be reading Biggirl’s Great Debate thread about fat people and stereotypes…another subject close to my heart. Scylla’s attitudes pissed me off, so I went after his posts and positions. He ignored me. Fine, whatever. I wasn’t going to stop saying what I had to say. Then he finally acknowledges me long enough to make weird, vague accusations about me, which I come right back at him about, and he posts this:

Threatening? Unreasonable demands? Huh? What was the threat? Was “don’t’ you dare tell me I’m imagining my experience” an unreasonable demand? Earth to Scylla! Earth to Scylla!

This is my first, and hopefully my last Pit thread directed at a Doper. I felt I had to post it because, in my view, Scylla told a vicious and ugly lie about me, and he did so simply because he’s a small and petty person who still cannot admit he made a mistake, either factual or tactical, when in fact he made both. And as a result, some of my fellow dopers might end up believing that I send scary threatening letters to people I disagree with, making unreasonable demands upon them.

And if by some small chance Scylla was not consciously meaning to tell vicious and ugly lies about me, and after running the above email through his mental filters, he really does see threat and unreasonable demands, then I must offer this advice: get some help, man, because I know you aren’t stupid, so you must be suffering from clinical paranoia.


I’d like to point out that this thread is the biggest waste of both server storage space and bandwidth I’ve ever seen in my life. It’s useless, it’s inappropriate, and I’m sorry I read it.

Got it?

Taking e-mail to the board is just plain old dumb dumb dumb. I understand your issue with Scylla, and realize that you feel strongly. However, why bring it to the boards?

ditto. been readin this crap and just HAVE to agree with Mr C.

Well, I DID take it to email, hello, and Scylla found it “threatening” -that’s kinda the POINT, guys.

So having Scylla accusing me of making threatening emails PUBLICLY didn’t strike me as something I wanted to fail to answer.

But I did warn you at the top, so don’t blame me.


Stoid wrote

I re-read the thread in question, and didn’t see it that way. Scylla disagreed with you about the facts, but he hardly made “ugly and vicious” statements about you. In fact, I thought all of his comments were extremely civil. For example, he ends his initial post with

The fact that he disagrees with you (in civil tones, no less) hardly makes him ugly and vicious.

On the other hand, I thought your comments, both in that thread, and in your email quotes were extremely vicious.

Sorry, but you threw it out here for public discussion.

Bill, you missed what I found ugly and vicious: he accused me of making a * threatening * email and claimed he took it “seriously” as though i had been so.

That’s nasty, I"m amazed you can’t see that. I was angry at him, and I was clear about my anger. I was in no way vicious, or threatening, and I made no demand at all except that he not tell me I’m imagining things. If you see something else, feel free to explain to me what it is.

And as for his “honoring my experience” line…well, I’d be interested to see your repsonse if you were, for instance, raped, and someone gently, kindly, without dishonoring your experience, informed you that it was impossible for you to be raped and you were imagining it. I think it’s accepted by most people that being told they are “imagining” things is offensive.


Stoid, that happened to my sister. She woke up during some fairly serious oral surgery. She wasn’t parlaysed though, the dentist knew she had regained consciousness because she was squirming and vocalizing, but continued to do work on her. She was planning to sue him, the dentist had a history of malpractice and was a drug addict, but she was murdered a few weeks later.

Ok, I spent the time to read both threads and Cecils’s word.

#1. Scylla was guilty of violating the spirit of that MPSIMS thread and the spirit of the MPSIMS forum IMHO…his initial post in that thread was entirely uncalled for…

#2. Stoid has proven to my satisfaction that the phenomena is real…and Cecil backs it.

#3. Hi Opal!

#4. How do I know that Scylla even has a friend that is a doctor?..or that such doctor even said what he attributes to him?..maybe Scylla is imagining it…

#5. Scylla must think he is a beautiful and unique snowflake if he thinks he doesn’t have to admit that he is wrong when confronted by the well documented truth.

So, let me get this right.

Scylla said that he doesn’t think that you felt those things, that you didnt’ experience the nightmare that you did.

You say now that Scylla couldn’t have felt threatened by your e-mail, that you didn’t say anything that he could have interpereted as hostile.

You are saying, although you aren’t seeing it:

Scylla cannot have an opinion of what you felt, but you can have an opinion of what Scylla felt.

This remains a bad, bad thread idea.

Stoid, it’s just my opinion, take it or toss it. I read the thread, I read your take on it, I gave you my opinion. I’ve now gone back and read the “fat” thread, and I have the same opinion.

Absolutely. In my opinion, the extreme clarity of anger you expressed in many, many posts and emails was nothing short of vicious.

Again, in my opinion.

KO you made my day. I for one have been waiting for the Scylla pit thread to start for days now. I was quite curious when Scylla brought up the threatening email and am grateful that Stoid was so kind as to explain the reference, not pollute Biggirl’s thread, and open the long awaited Scylla pit thread.

Now, will someone please do me the favor of roasting Scylla for his vigilante assholery in the drowning thread. I am fat and therefore far too lazy to post a proper flame on the topic, especially one that points out what crimes and torts that Scylla confessed to in that thread as well as how he violated the principles of rule by law and not by force. Extra Credit will be given for pointing out and detailing the fat bigotry tie in between comments he made in the drowning thread and in Biggirl’s thread.

The matter here isn’t what happened over email, but the comments Scylla posted to the boards about things that happened over email. While the whole backstory part is rather long, I don’t see anything wrong with asking Scylla to explain his comments and presenting the all the evidence. Personally, I wouldn’t go so far as to call him a liar, as he certainly could have honestly remembered your email as threatening (you did say “don’t you dare”).

I’ll await Scylla’s response on that matter.

As for the matter of being lucid during surgery, I don’t see much difference between the sensation of pain originating in the nerves or in the brain. I think that as far as the person experiencing it can tell, they’d be the same, and knowing that it was imagined wouldn’t diminish the experience. As for what happened in your case, either way you have my sympathy.

No. She is saying that the email was, objectively speaking, nonthreatening, and that if Scylla found it threatening, he isn’t really being rational.

Anyways, how the hell did I ever end up defending stoid? The Apocalypse can’t be far off.

I’m just a newbie, so I don’t know squat, but I’d guess Scylla might be embarrassed at having poo-poohed your experience, after he read Cecil’s column which vindicated you utterly. Seems to me it would be fair of him to acknowledge he was wrong. Some people are allergic to that. If he’s one of them, don’t waste your time seeking vindication - live and learn.

Well, you are right there, Masonite, and that is what I had done. As Waterj kindly explained (yer right, I can hear the 4 Horsemen in the distance, Waterj!), I felt I had to give the whole damn story to defend myself against his words, which I sincerely feel were calculated to slander me. So here we are.

After re-reading everything myself, I’m guessing that you are responding to my vulgar language, and if you find that vicious, I’m certainly in no position to argue. But I never said anything to him that the average person would find “threatening”, and no one has even tried to explain what he could possibly have meant by my “unreasonable demands”. Again…I think his post was calculated. I could not let it pass.

Lee: While you are certainly free to use my thread as a spring board to expressing your own beefs with Scylla, especially if they have to do with his “allergy”, I ask you and everyone else here: please don’t just drop in to make some “yeah, me-too-he’s-an-asshole” remark. If you have a beef, air it, call him out on his behavior if you find it objectionable, but don’t turn this into a gangrape. (And I’m not saying you did that here, I’m just cautioning against it. )

And thanks to those who see my point!


I’d say this is playing out like a tennis match, with the guilt ball bouncing back and forth between the two of you. But in the end I think it’s a draw.

The Fuck-Up List:

  1. Scylla fucked up by giving a somewhat patronizing lecture (that wasn’t needed) on a rather sensitive topic that should never have been argued about. This doesn’t exactly villify him, but it does show an extreme lack of tact.

  2. Stoid fucked up by reacting a bit too harshly.

  3. Scylla fucked up by continuing to back his position, even though it should’ve been obvious to him that Stoid was extremely sensitive about this matter. Scylla should’ve let the issue lie, it would’ve fallen asleep eventually.

  4. Stoid fucked up by, yet again, reacting a bit too harshly.

  5. Scylla fucked up by not apologizing. Sometimes it’s best to apologize even if you still think you’re right.

  6. Stoid fucked up by sending him an unneeded email that resolved nothing. She should’ve just done a little calming of the fuck-down.

  7. Scylla fucked up by digging up a dead issue, for no good reason whatsoever.

  8. Stoid fucked up by starting this thread.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. And these eight wrongs don’t put either of you in the right. So let’s just let this rite end, shall we?

  1. I fucked up by posting to this thread, and getting myself involved in a Jyhad that, methinks, won’t be ending any time soon. Oh well, it’s good to be occasionally reminded why my mouth tastes like foot, and vice versa.


Don’t know if I entirely agree, but I gotta say you made me laugh!


  1. I fucked up by spelling jihad wrong. Something tells me that about %25 of my post count will be devoted to corrections, foot-mouth insertions, etc.

If I can respond to the OP narrowly, I don’t think that Stoid has shown that Scylla is either a liar or delusional. He does have a habit of loose characterization, but we all knew that didn’t we? (Heck, most of us make loose characterizations from time to time.)

Any email message containing the phrase “Don’t you fucking dare”, when coming from (let’s face it) a stranger, is going to be a little disturbing, a little scary. But, no, the message made no direct threats.

Responding broadly:

  1. My understanding is that hallucinations following/during anesthesia are not uncommon. Nor do they reflect poorly on the person being put under.

  2. Stoid: My God, that experience sounded frightening/scary and -judging from the report of the nurse- a reflection of the fact that you did indeed wake up too soon/receive inadequate anesthesia.

Ah, Stoid, misunderstandings happen. Some are worse than others. Shrug it away! While that was a very bad time for anyone to debate “whether you had an experience or not”, excercise your shoulder muscles and ignore it!