Are you sure you’ve got that quote right, Adam? Usually, when Scylla plays “Totally, totally piss off the liberal weenies”, he sidles right up to something but leaves himself a semantic trapdoor. That quote is too bald.
Oh, get off of it. We didn’t encounter much resistance in occupied Germany after the war, and indeed refugees were desperately trying to get to our lines rather than land behind those of the Red Army. They knew, somehow, that even though we fought pretty tough on the battlefield, British and American troops could be counted on to be fair in occupation. They were correct in this view.
Likewise, Japan was subdued quickly and the occupation there was fair as well. And this after the capital was firebombed and two principal cities atomic bombed.
I am not suggesting that such tactics would be appropriate now, but history shows that your viewpoint has some holes in it. It also shows some justification for Scylla’s view, like it or not.
Hogwash. He is calmly and soberly discussing his views. He is not baiting you. He really isn’t … or have you simply reached the point at which you regard any disagreement with your views as baiting and deliberate provocation?
FWIW, I’m not terribly upset with Scylla’s having hijacked my thread. Seems to me like if there was going to be a debate over screwing with the metrics that would give one a clue whether the ‘surge’ was working, it would have happened before Scylla came striding in to share his wisdom with us. It didn’t.
I have posted a request in the thread that the mods change the thread title to something less specific to the issue of my OP, since the thread no longer has more than an incidental connection to the OP.
Hijack, hell, he murdered that thread, clubbed it to death like a baby seal. And you? You didn’t even thank him!
By the by, that’s “politically regressive” and “evolutionarily challenged”.
Um…
Germany was subdued after six years of total war that ravaged Europe. Japan took nine years, the destruction of its infrastructure, and the use of nuclear weapons. Not quickly at all. The people had suffered unbelievable privations during that time, and were simply sick of resisting.
I think Scylla is just expressing a perfectly natural rage at the incompetent prosecution of this war. Conservatives thought the US would come in, kick a little ass, and then let democracy flourish. Liberals thought the US would come in, kick some ass, and install some petty martinet who got the trains to run on time, and talked about rights but was really interested in selling oil for $35 a barrel. Anyway, this is how conservatives express their anger, when they can’t direct it at the man responsible.
That would be Clinton.
Nothing inescapably unambiguous, of course, or this would have been brought up by the Mods, not me. What disturbs me is that he seems to think genocide, while not necessarily required at this point, is a morally acceptable end-goal in some circumstances:
(The point being that here, and throughout the thread, he is citing Sherman’s worst behavior as examples to be followed, not avoided.)
Israel “simply won” in 1967. The kind of total victory Scylla seems to longing for would require nothing less than total ethnic cleansing of either the Palestinians or the Jews from all land west of the Jordan.
This bit is a symptom of insanity:
Posted by Chronos:
Scylla’s response:
It is not a possible scenario for any time within the next century, but never mind that; what’s important here is the moral attitude.
And so on.
We have many intelligent, thoughtful, conservative Dopers who often bring something of value to the table. Scylla has never been one of them. In the past he’s contributed many posts that were stupid, blinkered, ignorant, but not particularly Pitworthy. But these contributions are the work of a subhuman.
By “quickly” I meant after the occupations began. But you knew that.
In my experience dopers are on average only slightly above average. It seems like there are a lot of converts to the ‘life of the mind’ here on the dope, and by definition anyone who really starts to have an active life of the mind is beyond the average person. I don’t know if I’d put this board at several cuts above, though there are a number of posters who are several cuts above.
But, I’m going to take Scylla’s side on this, having gotten a pile-on for making a thread about killing all the Muslims in the middle-east on another board. It’s of course the only possible winning course. We should either start warming up the trains and clearing out the shower heads, or we should look toward an alternative to warfare. I sort of see it as one or the other. I started a thread about the future of war and how it will be prosecuted and got only one response. If people are stuck in the state vs state paradigm where success is measured in body counts, I hardly see where suggesting genocide is really all that gauche.
Scylla My hat goes off to you for keeping the faith on this politically correct liberal haven. I have respect for anyone who chooses to interact with so many politically opposed people. You could be on Little Green Footballs only hearing from the choir. So Kudos to you!
I didn’t read it that way, FWIW. Thanks for clarifying.
You’re kidding, right? Because if you’re serious, there aren’t words that suffice.
‘Gauche’?? Genocide isn’t some fucking faux pas. It’s murder on a massive scale.
FWIW, the ‘total war’ that Scylla thinks appropriate is the fruit of the state-v.-state paradigm. If anyone on the left side of this debate wants to win that way, or through piling up bodies in some other fashion, I’ve missed it.
Even by your own standards, it’s only in the context of Scylla that your claim is meaningful. So you are applauding him for bringing the paradigm to this discussion which you say is the precursor that makes talk of genocide okay.
So, are you whooshing us, or are you a monster?
Iraq offers no threat to the USA.
Many of the people resisting the occupation in Iraq are part of civilian communities, as opposed to regular and distinct military units, and as such can not be easily identified and singled out.
Scylla advocates total war: Bush fudging Iraq numbers, Iraq government hiding them - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board
Does that equate to advocating genocide? Yes.
I have a feeling some people are just reading bits of what Scylla is trying to say and not his whole message. From his POV, it may come down to “them” or “us”, i.e. his worst case scenario. He’s advocating us to be far more destructive than were are in order to avoid such a situation, to decrease the chances of being forced into an us or them situation. While it was noted that he considered wiping them out would be a victory, it was only slightly less desirable than having us all killed. I, for one, would rather kill my enemy rather than be killed. Other than a few devout non-violence advocates, I can’t think of anyone who would disagree.
While I think his conclusions are flawed and his reasoning incomplete regarding the outcome of our current conflicts, I think that he is no way advocating genocide as anything other than result of what we could be forced into if Iraq doesn’t turn around. That he is some how wishing for or advocating genocide is a poor interpretation of his writing. In fact he seems to be trying to avoid such a situation.
Main Entry: geno•cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
: the most abused term on the internet, the intellectual devaluation of which has been exceeded only by the absolute moral bankruptcy displayed in those willing to piss on actual victims of ethnic cleansing in order to gain a little righteous thunder for their current debate stance.
Are you suggesting that I break attorney client privilege?
What I will say is that, the only way to win is to commit genocide. So, if you support the war AT ALL, then you are either an idiot who wants to throw money into a never-ending pit without a net positive result for your side, or you will accept what needs to be done and work to delete the opposition.
I suppose it does more or less follow from GeeDubya’s Doctrine of Compulsory Alignment, the “you’re with us or agin us” notion. We demand that Muslim nations, or the Muslim population of other nations, declare thier allegiance, immediately and permanently, and if they refuse to declare themselves for us, they are subject to “preemptive neutralization”.
We should tatto some sort of symbol of allegiance, or a mark. Perhaps on the forehead, where it would be readily visible…
You’ve been “harassed” by moderators because you’re an ignorant, evasive, bigoted asshole.
Glad I could clear that up for you.
Please get down off your cross now, as the space has been reserved for Scylla.
I think what is bothering me the most is the casual discussions of extreme measures to be taken IN SOMEONE ELSE’S COUNTRY. Just the sheer, unmitigated arrogance of thinking what other people do in their country is and ever has been any of your damned business at all. It’s no wonder that Middle Eastern people hate the U.S. like they do.