Henry Aaron
Felipe Alou
Jose Canseco
Roberto Clemente
Rocky Colavito
Al Kaline
King Kelly
Roger Maris
Paul O’Neill
Mel Ott
Frank Robinson
Enos Slaughter
ETA:
I’m trying.
For me RF is not a position where I considered defense important for the vote. Oddly enough I do worry about it as the Yanks bring up prospects and look over free agents and trades. CF will be different, defense is an important factor. LF is a small step from DH in my mind.
My own question is why all the support for Al Kaline? I cannot think of one reason for him to make the list. He was not even close to my top 10. His stats and reputation do nothing to show that he was top 10. He was a great player but not one of the elite Right Fielders.
Great defensive right fielder, that’s why!
Actually, there’s almost no difference between him and Clemente, statistically speaking. One had a little more power, one had a little better OBP, etc. but you could have swapped one for the other straight up and made almost no difference to either team.
Henry Aaron
Sam Crawford
Elmer Flick
Vladimir Guerrero
Tony Gwynn
Al Kaline
King Kelly
Mel Ott
Frank Robinson
Babe Ruth
Clemente and Jackson, blah blah blah. They’re sure as hell closer to the top ten of their position than Pie Traynor was (sigh), but they don’t quite make it there for me. I’m sure they’ll breeze in anyway, so no worries. I’d make the case for King Kelly, but no one cares.
Yup.
Remember that his stats were accumulated during a terrible period for hitters; his .480 career SLG might seem unimpressive until you realize that the league average during his career was only .395.
I also gave him extra credit for an exceptionally long career at a consistently high level: his 11,597 plate appearances are (for instance) 2500 more than Heilmann, 4000 more than Colavito, and almost twice as many as Elmer Flick.
Ruth
Aaron
Clemente
R. Jackson
F. Robinson
Ott
Ichiro
Waner
Klein
Gwynn
I do consider defense at RF. Those with great arms are more valuable than just great hitters.
Since Ichiro is listed, I’ll assume he’s eligible and vote for him because he’s one of the most exciting, amazing and fundamentally excellent players I’ve seen.
Toughest call for me was between Heilman and Klein. Baseball-Reference.com shows the most similar players by age. Since I was waffling, I used this to tip the scales. Between the ages of 24 - 34:
Klein: Mize, Ted Williams, Williams, Williams, DiMaggio, DiMaggio, DiMaggio, DiMaggio, DiMaggio, DiMaggio
Heilman: Carlos May, May, Joe Vosmick (?), Vosmick, Goose Goslin, Heinie Manush, Manush, Manush, Manush, Goslin, Goslin
Yeah, Flick was my quixotic pick because I really couldn’t choose between Clemente/Jackson/Waner/Thompson. Hell of a hitter, but probably too short a career to merit inclusion. Although everyone seems to be jumping on the Ichiro “look at me, I’m a singles hitter with speed” bandwagon, so…
That being said, Al Kaline was all kinds of awesome, with reputedly one of the best arms in baseball history.
Yes he was. Very comparable to Waner and Gwynn as well as Clemente, whom I notice are all on your list. In 1967, when he hit “only” .308, with 25 homers and 78 RBIs, it doesn’t look very good compared to what someone like Guerrero does nowadays (and like I said Vladdie will likely be on my list in a few years, but I am a bit cautious with active players), but. The AL hit only .236 that year, .303 OBP, .351 SLG, 3.7 runs per game. Heilmann also made your list, but in 1923, when he hit .400, the league hit .283/.351/.388, 4.8 RPG. Harry’s season is better, but it’s a lot closer than it looks on the surface. Kaline’s peak isn’t as tremendous as the top guys’, but he belongs.
Several guys are arguaby equal with Clemente as a hitter (Winfield, for example, who is likely 11th-12th on my list), but his arm puts him over the top (and Winfield could throw a bit too). 27 baserunner kills (1961) are going to severely impact the number of runs scored by the opposition (not to mention all the times they just refused to run on him in the first place). Kaline wasn’t nearly as flashy as Roberto, but that’s another reason he’s on my list.
I will admit to Clemente being a sentimental pick*, you are right, he is no better than Kaline except he was even better defensively. I guess it is a little like Jackie Robinson, Roberto just gets bonus points from me for who he was and how he died.
Baseball reference has an option to neutralize the stats, Kaline still does not look top ten to me. I took Gwynn over the other singles hitters as he was better overall than Ichiro (who has too few years) and Wee Willie which surprised me. I planned to vote for Wee Willie (A Highlander {Yankee} you know) but Gwynn just plain looked better and I swapped spots.
As I said, Kaline was a great player, but I don’t think he was top 12. I am not sure where he fits for me after that.
BTW: I really wanted an excuse to vote for Paul O’Neill but I couldn’t do it, I am glad someone else did. Thank you Sigmagirl
- I remember when Clemente died, not real well, but I remember it and my Dad was really saddened by it. One of the networks did a nice tribute to him New Year’s Day. I think it was ABC, but I am not sure.
What does Waner have that Kaline doesn’t? Particularly when Al kills Paul as a fielder?
Waner is slightly better at OBA, but honestly you got me on him. his numbers are good but about equal value to Kaline, but I was going by reputation for Waner also. He makes it into loads of baseball books and I was influenced by that.
Kaline had great defense and a rocket arm. I saw him play for his whole career and he played for a lot of weak teams. He was a clutch hitter. He threw out a lot of base runners and had great range in the field. He played the game the way it should be played.
Weak teams? The 1960s Tigers were one of the most consistently strong teams (that won only one pennant) that I have ever seen. Some of those teams were tremendous–McLain, Freehan, Cash, McAuliffe, Lolich, on and on. How can you say that? If Kaline hadn’t broken his collarbone one year, the Yankees wouldn’t have won 5 straight pennants, either.
During Kalines career the Tigers finished in
!953 6th
then 6th,5th,5th.5th.4th,5th.4th,6th, 2nd (1961) , 4th.5th 4th.4th,3rd.2nd.1st (1972 2nd.
Not exactly a successful record in my opinion.
Kaline played in the playoffs in 1968, and 1972. That is all.
It was still a significant factor for my picks. However, I’ll admit I didn’t weigh defense as much as I did than when I chose my top ten for shortstop, second base, third base, and catcher. I think defense is a more important factor for those positions than it is for right field or left field.
Suzuki and Kaline play ball the right way. I count defense. Thats why Bonds and Jackson when they decided to make homeruns their only contribution ,I lost respect for them. They could cover the outfield and steal bases when they were young. They just quit doing it. I see that as disrespect for the game.
Suzuki is not a great defensive player. And yeah, shame on Bonds: he had the temerity to be worse on defense when he entered – gasp! – his 40s. He was also 21-for-22 in stolen bases his last five seasons (which includes his 42 AB season in 2005). Criticize Bonds however you want, and odds are he’s earned it, but this criticism is ludicrous.
Come on… corner outfielders aren’t defensive players. They’re there to smack the ball hard,
Are you (and other posters) confusing Bobby and Barry Bonds?