Sorry, 5 min timer bit me as well. Here’s the link.
To give some examples of how the passing score would work, I’ll show a table with some examples.
QB A throws for 250 yards, 1 td, 0 ints, 2 sacks.
QB B throws for 175 yards, 3 TDs, 3 ints, 5 sacks.
QB C throws for 375 yards, 1 TD, 1 int, 3 sacks
QB D throws for 150 yards, 3 TDs, 1 int, 3 sacks.
QB E throws for 200, 1 TD, 4 ints, 6 sacks.
QB F throws for 300 yards, 4 TDs, 0 ints, 1 sack
The examples are pretty much pulled out of my ass, and aren’t intended to demonstrate every extreme, just a feel for the differences.
Scoring system 1 will be the old yahoo default scoring, 25 yards per point, 6 per td, -2 for int.
System 2 will be the new default scoring, 25 yards per point, 4 per TD, -1 per int.
System 3 is my proposed system - 20 yards per point, 4 per TD, -2 per int, -.5 per sack.
1 2 3
A 16 14 15.5
B 19 16 12.25
C 19 18 19.25
D 22 17 16
E 6 8 3
F 36 28 30.5
I like column 3’s results the most.
As for the tentative settings, barring IDP they look solid. Minor tweaks I would suggest:
Receptions (.35)
Point After Attempt Missed (-3)
Your FG penalties are fine; no need to boost the successful ones. PATs are such a gimme that a stiff penalty for missing them seems just. As for points per reception, 0.4 feels just a tiny bit high, but would be fine. The thing to remember is that points per reception (artifically?) inflates the value of RBs like Brian Westbrook, so you don’t want to make them too valuable. The nice thing about them is they help TEs a ton, bringing them closer to the WR level.
Regarding IDP, I will need to do some more number crunching before I can offer credible recommendations.
It would make our QB position based more on efficiency than TD count, which is generally good. I worry that it’ll weaken the relative value of QBs relative to other positions - WRs and RBs by our standards just rack up points, aside from fumbles they have no efficiency value and penalties like we’re giving to QBs.
Fair enough. I’m not sure if you could say that Westbrook would be artificially inflated - you could just say that versatility is another way to keep up with the plow-horse types like LJ. If we had 1 PPR, Westbrook would probably be pretty inflated, but at .35 PPR a game, 6 receptions = 2 points roughly, which is 20 yards. Not a huge number, but enough to give more value to WRs and versatile RBs.
I like us having to put more thought into our drafting and player selection than just following default scoring rule guidelines.
Kickers will become devalued in our league when they’re already of minimal value, but I’m not sure that’s a huge deal, as there’s not too much thought into plugging in kickers. Maybe a slight change like 0-19 = 3, 20 - 29 = 3, 30-39 = 4, 40-49 = 5, 50+ = 6 would even it out a little.
It’d be good, if you wanted, to put it in a table format like I did with QB yards. Give examples of different types of defenders and how each of their days would be scored by different systems. It helps highlight the differences.
Do you guys think that the importance should be relatively even amongst the positions, or should importance be placed upon one position over others?
I’d like to see a “first down” point. At first, I thought I’d like to see it for receivers, but then I thought about running backs…then I considered quarterbacks…and now I’m back to where I started. “First down” would be a point that’d help smooth over an imbalance.
I don’t even know if Yahoo supports a “first down” stat, though.
I’ll just be sitting here, mentally jerking myself off. Don’t mind me.
I, personally, would like to see positions more equally valued, instead of everything being about RBs. Giving a fractional point per reception helps give receivers a boost in importance (as well as more importance to versatile RBs). That’s my main concern about downgrading QB scoring, they’re already secondary to RBs and I’m worried it’ll weaken their position further.
I would especially like a third down conversion point, but yahoo doesn’t have anything like that, or even just for first downs. I listed (I think) all of the possible scoring categories that can be used when I made the questionaire about people’s preferences earlier in the thread.
Christ, this is almost like trying to figure out video game balance. Also, if we decide to go so far as return men, we get return yards to contend with.
You know, it’s almost worth doing on paper with our own rules. Anyone want to tackle that Herculean task?
I suggest playing for money. If you have a small payoff for best team of month the bad teams have something to play for. If not you will have players with no interest after half season.
We’d have more flexibility that way, to invent rules that yahoo doesn’t support, but it’s just too much work and would take too long to find out scores and such after the games. I’d rather try to devise a really good system that works within the yahoo capabilities. I think we’re pretty close on everything but IDP, which, as I said, might get thrown out anyway.
If the people who are in the league but haven’t yet chimed in their preferences would go ahead and do that, I’d appreciate it. If you want, look over the league settings, and just list where your preferences deviate from the current set of rules.
Nah, last year we had 9/12 people show up every week even to the end, and thankfully all 9 have returned from last year. The last three (or five) slots will go to people who I feel confident will live up to their word about participation. I’m not worried about making this more about ego and acknowledging that I’m the SDMB’s foremost football expert and really just greatest person all around than money.
I’m good either way. I’ve played in some rather unorthodox scoring leagues.
Oh, here’s a very important thing that I didn’t really realize was very important.
Under team defense, there’s a score for “return yards”. I thought this just referred to interception and touchdown return yards, but since defenses are often referred to as defense/special teams, would that category include special teams returns made by that team? Immediately under that category is “kickoff and punt return touchdowns”, at least indicating that big special teams plays can be credited to the defense.
Does anyone know what the defensive return yards include? Obviously this would drastically change the value of that scoring category.
And in a random comment, I just realized that if we were playing by the keeper rules posted early in this thread last year, I’d be able to keep Maurice Jones-Drew, Joseph Addai, and Laurence Maroney. Oh well.
Er, I meant fumble return yards, of course.
It does include kickoff and punt returns. I thought your inclusion of that stat was intentional in order to boost team defense value. If you remove it, I would say that the remaining team defense scoring leaves it a touch undervalued.
Ah, I did mention I wanted to do that earlier in the thread, and then somehow forgot that that stat included that. 20 yards/point is way too much, teams can get hundreds of yards in returns in total per game. I wouldn’t mind including it as a stat, though, but it’d have to be at 50 yards/point or greater, I’d imagine.
I’d have to look up some box scores and see how many return yards there are in a given game.
Even without return yards, though, our league scoring is already gives significantly more points to defenses than the default scoring method. How important do you feel defenses should be?
Improtant enough that you can’t comfortably ignore defense during the draft.
Normal scoring rules allow you to not enough bother drafting a defense, and in some respects it is wiser to simply use a rolling defense strategy, dropping/adding whichever available defense has the best matchup that week.
Then again, you may want the rolling defense strategy to be the norm; I dunno.
I like the idea of having important defenses - they’re one of the most fun things to manage as far as matchups.
My immediate concern is that return yardage isn’t necesarily indicative of good special teams play - if your defense is getting their ass kicked, they’re making a lot of kick returns, and hence if there are a lot of points given for return yards your defense is essentially rewarded for giving up points. Punt return yards are better, but the majority of return yards are kick returns.
It’s good to reward a defense/special teams unit for returning kicks to the 50, but bad to reward them for getting 4 TDs and 3 FGs scored against them, and hence, 8 returns.
Is there any reason that it’s a good idea to keep scoring values consistent across different types of positions?
By that I mean - if an interception is worth -2 to a QB, does it have to be worth 2 points to a defense, and 2 points to an IDP? It seems nice and symetrical that way, but I can’t really think of any concrete reason it should be that way. Or if a lost fumble represents -2, it hardly seems fair to give an IDP 1 for a forced fumble and 1 for a fumble recovery, when either action is a big play.
If we give defenses 1 point per sack, does that mean our sack penalty of -.5 on the QB is uneven, or asymetrical, or whatever and should be changed? For that matter, 4 points per passing TD bucks that trend too.
Or for that matter, should fumbles for RBs be equal to ints for QBs? My line of thinking is that even good QBs throw a lot more ints than RBs tend to lose fumbles, and so giving them the same value gives QBs in effect a bigger efficiency penalty than RBs.
Seems like it would free us up a bit if we, for example, felt free to set a team defense value of 3 points per interception, even if the corresponding penalty on the QB is only -2.
If we wanted team defenses to play a bigger role, I was considering making sacks 1.5 points (from 1), and ints and fumble recoveries 3 (from 2), but that would break the points symmetry thing that seems to be valued by the FF community.
I made a few tweaks to our scoring system, feel free to give feedback.
Reception = .35 (.4)
Individual return yards = 25 yards per point (35 per point) - did the math and at 25/point even the most prolific kick returners would only get 3.75 points or so per game for their returns at this value. Not enough to be overpowering, but could give the player who’s a part time starter, and quality special teamer viability to be a backup.
FG 30-39 = 4 points (3)
FG 40-49 = 5 points (4)
FG 50+ = 6 points (5)
Missed FG 30-39 = -1 (0)
Missed PAT = -3
We’re making kickers more efficiency based than is typical - I had to up the points from successful kicks to offset the lost points, but added a minor penalty for missed 30-39 yarders to someone compensate.
Team defense/special teams return yards: 50 yards/point. As described in my earlier post, I’m not sure what to do with this stat - I don’t want to end up rewarding a defense for bad play.
IDP:
Solo tackle = .65 (.5)
Tackle Assist = .15 (.25)
Int = 6 (4)
Force Fumble = 3 (2)
Fumble Recovery = 3 (2)
Slightly more in line with our discussions, still not sure if that needs a major tweaking or what. Would help if the people who haven’t given their opinions on whether or not to have IDP would chime in.
Is there a way to get yahoo to show you what the player rankings/projected score would be based on your league’s scoring system, or is it all based on their default scoring system? It’d be easy to see the effect of IDP numbers if we could have yahoo rate players based on whatever numbers we plug in.
Actually, I thought it might do that by default, so I checked, except I can’t figure it out.
For exmaple, I check Remaining Games (projected) and it gives me the projected stats for Donovan McNabb and says his projected season score will be 329.61. Well, to figure out if it was projecting score based on the default yahoo scoring system, or our system, I did the math. Neither matched up. Our system gives him 348.25, whereas the default system gives him 318.04. Neither adds up to their projected score. So hmm…
:smack: Of course there was an easy way to test it which took me a bit to think of. Just ratchet up one of the stats dramatically, and see how it changes things.
I changed the tackle numbers to 10 per point, and suddenly linebackers are having 1300 point projected seasons. So yes, it does the projections based off of your stats. Very cool.
That being said, the projected numbers on our current IDP for DL/Linebackers looks pretty good to me. Here are the top players.
Jason Taylor, DE
Shawne Merriman OLB
DeMeco Ryans MLB
London Fletcher OLB (I think)
Donnie Edwards OLB
Ray Lewis MLB
Lance Briggs OLB
Zach Thomas MLB
Antonio Pierce OLB
Will Witherspoon OLB
Julius Peppers DE
The list is dominated by Linebackers, but elite defensive linemen can still stand out. But the linebackers themselves aren’t dominated strictly by massive tacklers - those ones appear there, but linebackers who do a little of everything - tackle, sack, intercept, etc. get their place in the sun. The top 3 - Taylor, Merriman, and Ryans, are the kind of defenders I’d expect/hope to be on top - each has a different role, but are elite defenders in that role. That tells me our IDP scoring system is pretty close to being good.
If you want to see the numbers yourself, go to the players tab, and select "Remaining Games (proj) from the dropdown.
DBs are probably a little overvalued - the top few DBs are 30-40 points higher than the top DLs. This is probably because pass defensed at 4 points is too high - the top DBs are credited with 15-22 defensed passes every year, combined with the high score for interceptions, makes it too much. They’re not competing directly with the DLs for roster spots unless we use the defensive player roster spot rather than DL or DB specifically. But still, the top DBs should probably roughly match the top DLs in value.
After adjusting passes defensed down to 3, the scores are more in line although probably still a little on the high side.
Based on the projection, I’m feeling more confident in our IDP values than I was before. Feedback, please. Feel free to check projected stats for all positions, it’ll help us identify potential flaws in our scoring system. Interestingly enough, Vince Young is rated as the #4 projected QB. I think the projection will end up being faulty - he’s going to come down as teams have more film on him, and most of his projected stats are from running. Maybe he’ll be the new Michael Vick. In a somewhat related note, I think our sack penalty might be too harsh - it’ll end up being a bigger penalty than ints for a lot of QBs. Maybe something like .35 is more appropriate.
It’s just custom.
I don’t have a big problem with position-specific scoring values. One thing I would like to do is make sure that within a position, a turnover is a turnover. That ends up meaning that for team defense, a fumble recovery should equal an interception. And on offense, fumble + fumble lost should equal a thrown interception. (Some QBs lose a lot of fumbles.)
Just an FYI, London Fletcher is a tackle machine, but in a good way. The list you posted of the top IDP guys looks good to me.
Most team defense points will come from points allowed. A great defensive day involves a crapload of 3&outs, which rarely generate any other kind of points for the defense. (Maybe a sack if you’re lucky.) It’s not that unusual to see a defense completely stifle their opponent but score no fantasy points at all except for points allowed. Thus I would recommend focusing your team defense adjustments on the points allowed matrix.
You’re doing good; keep it up. Nobody else is responding because as a general rule nobody cares about the minutia of fantasy scoring. Plus, our posts are really long and I doubt most people are even reading them.
The one thing we do need feedback on…