Actually, I’m pretty sure Chemical Alia (the creator of those linked skins) is a she. She was also responsible for designing the spy items that were the winning Polycount picks (the l’Etranger, YER, and Familiar Fez).
Duh - that makes sense with the name Alia. I think Phoenix said, “some guy did these models . . .” and I just went from there.
Anyway, she is really talented. It’s an interesting melding of art design and technology mastery, from the progress shots she posted at Facepunch. I felt really annoyed when she’d posted all these complicated steps, and how she carefully tweaked the look, and solved technical problems, and the first comment on it was, “Needs to be more boner-inducing.”
To be fair, that IS how the Japanese critique games.
Game tonight. The tuesday thing seems to work fine for everyone.
There’s an issue I want to raise because I’m tired of hearing about it so I want to get it resolved. I didn’t want to derail the game we were in with an argument, and I wanted other people to chime in, so I brought it here.
Phoenix, and by extension, Cinnamon are always complaining about the “short attention span” map times we run.
We run what is basically a standard amount of time - what, across FPS games, is probably above average. For objective maps like attack/defend and payload, we run one cycle. For one stage maps like Badlands that may take 20-25 minutes, for a big one like Thundermountain it can take over an hour. But it’s logical enough - the teams are set, one attacks, one defends, then you reverse, then you move on to the next match. New teams, new map.
For maps that have smaller cycles, like KOTH or degroot, I set the map time at a half hour. This is plenty of time to get into the groove of things and have quite a few rounds. It’s pretty much the standard for non-console game map times.
But Phoenix is always claiming that I have a “short attention” span and fighting against every time I suggest a map change for any reason. I asked them today to clarify why not wanting to spend all night playing the same map was a “short attention span” and they only could essentially point to it being self evidence, or that it indicated patience.
But patience for what, exactly? What are you waiting for by running the same map over and over? How does that display patience? Does a person who eats chocolate ice cream one night and then vanilla the next display a short attention span?
And besides that, what does that even have to do with attention span? Attention span is typically associated with shorter periods than a half hour - but even regardless of that - it’s a measure of how much you can pay attention to something without being distracted. If we play one map for an hour, or two maps for a half hour each, everyone is paying attention to the same degree. It has no bearing on attention span.
The irony is that Phoenix has been pushing me to run orange maps on our server. Orange maps are minimalist killboxes with a bit of cover here and there - they’re basically designed so that you can run out and immediately find combat, be constantly under fire, and just have constant stimulation. If you want to talk about having a short attention span in the context of gaming, requiring that constant stimulation with no downtime is actually indicative of it.
Additionally, he reflexes grumbles about map changes in any context. If we do a half hour of harvest, and then the server crashes on the next map change, and then it resets to harvest, I’ll hold a map vote because we just got done playing harvest and we were going on to a new map. But he’ll complain about that, saying I shouldn’t change the map. But had I just started the server on a different map, he wouldn’t have complained about not being on harvest. In other words, he’s just resistant to changing the map in any context regardless what you’re changing from and what you’re changing to, and when. Which makes me wonder - what’s the big deal about changing the map? So it takes 20 seconds to load the new one and we get a new one minute setup period. Is that the problem? Could that lack of stimulation for two minutes be hard to tolerate? And I’m the one who has attention span problems?
Now I’m taking a somewhat insulting tact. This is because they have been insulting over this from the very start. They don’t say “I prefer to play maps longer”, they say “oh what the hell is with this short attention span bullshit”, insulting me to suggest that our disagreement on the nature of map length is obviously a result of a character flaw on my part. It’s nonsensical - as I’ve pointed out, there’s no real link between attention span and map length (otherwise is the person who only plays 1 map over and over and never anything else the person with the greatest attention span in the world?), and actually quite the reverse since he’s probably the one with the short attention span - but either way, there’s no other way to take it than as an insult.
And I’m tired of it. Lay out a case. Explain to me why wanting to play a few maps a night is somehow a sign that you are of lesser character and intellect than someone who just wants to play the same one over and over again. And besides that, explain to me why playing maps for longer is better for gameplay. Why is running a full cycle on a payload map, and then doing it all over again, superior to running one cycle on two maps?
Make a case. If people chime in to agree with you, I will adjust our map times appropriately. If you refuse to chime in, or if no one agrees with you, I would hope that you would stop fucking insulting me over it all the time.
OK, I’m happy to respond to what I think is going on, but please don’t assume Cinn is my conspiratorial partner on this. She has her own ideas, is better at expressing them, and shouldn’t be lumped in with me on this.
I guess the first part I should discuss is “short attention span”. This is not a slur in the “You’ve got ADD!” sense. It simply refers to, on the non KOTH maps, switching to another map every time both sides get one chance at attack/defense.
Why do I think it may be valid to do these maps 2-3 times in the attack/defend sequence? Sometimes the teams end up completely uneven and one team rolls over the other. When I’m on the receiving end of that (and often on the giving end), my inclination is to shuffle up the teams and the same map AGAIN, not just move on hope for new teams on a new landscape. Keeping the same map for a longer than 1 round (round being 1 attack/defend) allows the server to try new strategies as well as lowering the complexity factor for those people who are not ultra-familiar with the map. I often see the other team employing new strategies (at least to me) that I want to experiment with and, when I happen to be on the defending team, that just is never going to happen because we’re on to the next map. When we’re playing intelligence capture maps I personally find it a lot of fun using teamwork to find ways through defenses and finding some way to kill a rival (I’m looking at you Yamato! 
). While this can certainly happen in the span of of 20 min rotation, it’s less likely to happen when we play only 1 round which takes 10 minutes or less because, by luck of the draw, the sides were distributed unequally.
Just like the “There is no reason to ever have more of 2 of any class” rule, I simply don’t agree that it universally ruins play for everyone. While I disagree with it, I certainly recognize that “what is fun” is an internal measurement that can not and should not be dictated by some attempt at a logical argument based on some universal standard of what “fun” is. If the community decides overall that the current rotation style is the most fun for the most people, than no problem, let’s stick with it. I welcome the opportunity for discussion of what’s best for the community.
I don’t really have an issue with the map times, but I think phoenix has some good points. Sometimes when a team just gets rolled on an attack/defend map, particularly on a map or individual capture point that I enjoy playing, its not fun to change the map so quickly. Nobody really has an opportunity to try out different tactics or classes or play with balanced teams. For the people newer to the game, there isn’t enough time to familiarize with the map, or even get to experience defending all the points (if your team is the one rolling), or attacking all points (if your team is the one getting rolled).
On the other hand, if the game isn’t particularly balanced and people are getting frustrated, sometimes people just want the map to be over with and start with a clean slate on a fresh map.
I will echo the above, sometimes it seems like I run out of the spawn, get killed once (okay maybe more than once), and then the round’s over. It would be nice to have some time to try things out or get revenge on whoever’s dominating me. Or maybe some more CTF games - why don’t we ever play CTF maps?
crossover seems to be on a heavy rotation, and there’s at least one or two others that seem to be played somewhat regularly. The problem with ctf maps is that with a lower playercount that the SDMB server normally sees, most ctf maps are just way too spread out to be fun, as they require people to be guarding the intel, people to be in the enemy base trying to capture the other intel, and whatever fighting that goes on in the middle. People just don’t see enough action, especially on something like 2fort, whereas everyone is fighting over the same general area in cp, pl, or KOTH maps.
Ah, now that’s interesting because I’ve always sort of felt the opposite - when there are too many players, on 2fort especially, you can’t go two steps anywhere without bumping into an opponent. And with only 3 access points (for most classes) into the opposition base, you just have to park a sentry or spycheck pyro and nobody can get in. With fewer players I thought it might be more fun because you actually have a chance to sneak in and out.
2fort shouldn’t be taken as an example of a CTF map, as the rest are intentionally designed to not be like that steaming pile of crap. Even on the fairly tiny doublecross, we typically wind up with too few players for the weaker team to even attempt to mount an offense, so the game winds up going nowhere.
Map time seems mostly fine to me, if one side gets rolled too quickly then you’re better off just cycling again, especially without a scramble mechanism in place. I’d personally prefer more time on the badlands and gravelpits and less (much less) on the degroots and nucleus but everyone has their own opinion on that, so it’ll always be a compromise.
I dunno, SDMB server games tend to often run 6v6. Assuming an even split offense/defense, that leaves each team with 3 defenders and 3 attackers. On 2Fort, that means one person on the sniper deck, one person to defend the upper respawn/ramp room area, one (bored) person to defend the basement, and nobody covering the front entrance area. I’m not sure how you can consider that crowded at all. Contrast that with a map like harvest, where everyone is within shooting range of the middle point, and its easy to see why we spend more time on it.
For the record, I like the map times. I don’t have anything against necessarily switching if we’re on a map a very short time but I’m not sure what the limitations are in setting map switches. In general though, I think the system works. I get bored with the same map for too long, and when we’re playing a map I dislike a lot, I try to suffer through it.
In regards to CTF maps, they all seem extremely grindy to me (that could partially be due to their age). We are doing a good amount of Doublecross, which is probably the best of them. I wouldn’t object to some CTF Sawmill. 2Fort and Turbine are pretty grindy to me. Well would be all right, I guess.
Fair enough, but she was certainly taking your side on it last night, so that’s why I grouped you.
Despite your protest, I’m pretty much sure it is a slur. You’ve never said “what’s with the short map times” or anything like that. You ALWAYS say “short attention span map times” - dozens of times over months. If you simply had a friendly disagreement on map times, you could state it that way, but every time it comes with the insult and implicit judgement. It’s your goal not only to say “I don’t like this setting” but “we disagree on this because only someone who has a character flaw would take your side”
I don’t think anyone would take being told over and over that they have a “short attention” span would take it in a neutral, non-insulting way. Especially if it’s wildly inaccurate. I’m actually very focused and don’t have a short attention span at all. The nature of your insult relies on an illogical assumed link between ability to focus and desire to have some aspect of the stimulation given variety.
Not switching the map generally preserves the unfair teams. Switch maps scrambles them. I don’t know exactly what the criteria is for scrambling on payload or capture maps, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it auto-scramble on them. I don’t know how far behind one team would have to get, but it doesn’t seem to happen in the course of normal play. So running a second round of goldrush or granary just means a second asswhipping by the dominating team.
Even besides that, you just say you like to go at the map again with new teams without providing justification for why this is better.
I’m not sure what you mean by “lowering the complexity” factor. We probably rotate through around 20 maps total, and by now everyone knows them all. You do seem to have a unique ability to forget where you’re going on every map despite playing them dozens of times so maybe that’s an issue here if the map is changing right as you’re getting familiar with it again, but I think for most people everyone has all of the regular maps pretty much memorized. Other than that, I don’t know what complexity could possibly mean.
As far as “20 min rotation” - the default is 30 and most non-timelimit maps tend to take longer if anything. It’s very rare for us to play a round in 10 minutes or less - the only way that happens is if one team completely steamrolls the other and wins quickly, and then the second team fails to get a time extension when they’re on the attack… and if that happens, that’s a prime situation not to be trying it again with the same teams because they clearly suck. Even so, if maps happen to go by unexpectedly quickly (this happens on doublecross sometimes) I’ll generally manually extend the number of rounds so we end up playing a half hour +/- on a map. I’d say the number of maps that we actually play that last under 15 minutes is probably 1 in 50 at most - probably less.
This is part of my point, actually. The fact that you don’t feel the need to insult me constantly over the class limiter issue (although you do tend to make it known when you’re cranky that you didn’t get to play a certain class) is why I tend not to get pissed over it. That’s a disagreement that we’re civil about because you don’t imply I’m an idiot for wanting it that way. Incidentally - people are not too inclined to publically post their support for things, I’ve noticed - I’ve gotten at least 5 or 6 instant messages on steam that say they like what I was going for with the class limiter thing but no one is willing to post about it so it looks like I’m taking actions unilaterally.
I go out of my way to try to build a consensus and get everyone’s opinion. As an example, the whole issue that lead to the class limiter thing was that we had a vote as to whether to do highlander one night and it came out 9 yes 5 no, so I turned it on, but some of the no voters were very strong in their objections so I turned it off. When people were complaining about RTD, I turned it off 80% of the time and only bring it out occasionally.
I don’t know what you’re referring to, because this never happens unless you’re talking about logging in 20 minutes into a map’s rotation and then obviously it’s not going to be that long until the map changes. It’s very rare to have a game last less than 15 minutes. The only map I’ve intentionally shortened the timer on is degroot - because it tends to be very polarizing, with a few people really hating it and even leaving the server until it’s gone, so I try to make that a relatively quick map so people can get their fix while people that hate it can just bear through it and not quit.
As far as CTF maps - there just aren’t that many. The stock CTF maps are 2fort, doublecross, sawmill, turbine, and well. Three of those were on our rotation but I removed 2fort due to lots of complaints. Sawmill… doesn’t seem very well balanced to me, like it wasn’t designed for CTF and that function was just crammed on. We could do it I suppose. I don’t think we’ve tried Well, so I can throw that into the rotation. But in general there’s just a lack of good CTF maps. Now that we’re working in some custom maps for private SDMB games, I’m open to suggestions about new CTF maps.
I’d also like to point out that during every map vote, there’s an “extend map” option. It’s occasionally chosen, but generally isn’t, because I think the vast majority of people we play with are content with the map times.
For TF2, we run games about the average amount of time - some servers are 24/7 servers, but otherwise map changes generally happen within a half hour. This is actually a lot more time than most xboxed up shooters get - black ops and homefront for example generally have rounds in the 10 minute range.
I think you’re confusing him with me. 
(Early in my TF2 career I was playing on a public server and got ubered . . . and promptly ran *away *from the area of engagement. :smack:)
No, I agree, I’m not saying 6v6 is crowded, I was saying generally the typical max player games are too crowded and the lower numbers on SDMB might make it more enjoyable, as opposed to too sparse, for CTF.
I either won’t be able to make it tonight or if I do I’ll be late, so everyone just go ahead and start self organizing around 8-8:30ish, the usual. Hit people with sticks if you see them around but not in game.
Electronic Chaos’ computer blew up for about a week and a half and that’s why we haven’t had the stats working, but we’re working on getting that back on track, not sure if it’ll be ready for tonight or not.
I had a list of custom maps people recommended to me - I put them in a notepad file meaning to check them out, but windows forced a restart on me when I was away and I forgot to actually save that file, so I lost it. So if you recommended a custom map for me to try out, please tell me again.
Not sure if I can make it tonight, but go ahead and self organize if not.
Decent sized patch released yesterday, it broke sourcemod so I had to disable it to get the server working again. So no sourcemod functions for now.
Notable stuff in the patch:
Added new map Koth_Badlands
Added 3 new training courses for the Demoman, Engineer, and Spy
Added a new system for coaching players (??)
Added a new vote system
Updated voice to use the Steam voice codec to improve quality
Replaced the no-crit attribute with -25% damage on the following:
The Eyelander, The Gunslinger, The Southern Hospitality, The Powerjack (also added +20% melee vulnerability)
The Horseless Headless Horseman’s Headtaker, The Ullapool Caber, The Claidheamohmor
Dalokohs Bar
Removed item cool down meter and ammo count when using the Dalokohs Bar
Fists of Steel
Increase deploy times 20%
Ranged damage reduced 40% (down from 60%)
Loch-n-Load
Damage increased by 10%
Equalizer
Tuned high-end damage range so it’s no longer possible to one-shot certain classes
Suppress the medic call effect while active
Battalion’s Backup
Reduced rage generation rate by 50%
Concheror
Damage-to-health conversion increased to 35% (from 20%)
Mad Milk
Heal 60% of damage done (down from 75%)
Sun-on-a-Stick
Base damage lowered slightly but guarantees crits against burning players instead of mini-crits
Fan O’ War
Marking someone for death now lasts 15 seconds (from 10 seconds)
Flaregun
Flares always crit burning targets, regardless of range
Backburner
Removed the restriction on airblast
Ammo cost increased 150% (4 blasts at full ammo)
Damage bonus reduced to 10% (from 15%)
Sydney Sleeper:
Charge rate increased 25%
There are a bunch of other minor changes, just bringing up the ones that seemed interesting. Huge change for the backburner, don’t think I like it.
Anyway I probably won’t be able to make it tonight or if I do I’ll be late so form up on your own.
Now that the game has scramble and map cycle voting built in, the biggest mod features are covered anyhoo.
The backburner change is long overdue. The pyro’s entire utility and most of the individual combat threat is tied up in the air blast, and the backburner’s restriction of such made it a useless item. With the boosted cost it’s still not very practical, but at least you don’t turn yourself into helpless bait just by equipping it.