An interesting story, and as true here as it was there. As I see it, two different people could start identical Pit threads with identical OPs. Depending on the popularity and acceptance of the thread opener, one could descend into piled-on chaos, while the other sails into infamy as one of the all-time great threads. It’s a shame, but it’s the nature of the thing.
I think that is generally true. I see the same thing often. This thread is interestingas the OP is one posters general disagree with to the point of it appearing to be a near reflex. (I am guilty of this, though I try not to be.) Posters are agreeing and admitting to feeling odd about doing so. There are many other examples but this is one I saw recently and no posters are getting roasted.
That’s a perfect example, What Exit?. Thank you.
IIRC, for the entire 2008 calendar year it was three people banned for jerk issues, plus four for having sock accounts (one of latter of which I had initially overlooked).
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that statement represents the key issue at the heart of this controversy: If we wait until something is decided, it’s almost always too late to do anything about it. It’s basic human nature for decision-makers to resist rolling back decisions once they’ve been made.
After a tentative policy change is prepared, perhaps the staff should create an official thread formally soliciting public input period before implementing it?
Of course, I don’t know if you were already planning precisely that, but I’m just sayin’…
(bolding mine)
That is why I started this thread. Though, to be honest, it has ended up pretty much like the other threads on this topic. I completely agree with what you’ve said.
If (and that’s a BIG “if”) the *primary *problem Ed and other mods/admins have with The Pit is abuse of staff, then this is probably the best idea around. Any criticism of Ed/mods/admins should be taken here, ATMB, where no nasty or abusive language is ever tolerated.
That being said, if a mod/admin engages in a fight as a “regular poster” (and not acting in a position of authority), they should take their lumps like the rest of us.
To me, that is a total mischaracterization of a crucial function of the Pit. The Pit allows gratuitous vitriol to be called out and denounced. A lot of the times that I see, what happens is this:
OP: [posts something intriguing in IMHO, GD, or even MPSIMS[
OTHER POSTERS: commentary, much of it thoughtful and engaging
THREADSHITTER: You and your entire world view suck!
OP or OTHER POSTERS: Threadshitter, I don’t want to ruin this thread or break the rules by responding to you here, but your small-minded racism/sexism/troglodyte offensiveness/other stupidity really needs to be addressed. Meet me in the Pit.
When I started paying attention to the SDMB, I dipped into the Pit and felt very uncomfortable with the over-the-top name-calling and coarse use of language that are common there. But as time went by, I found myself gravitating to the Pit more and more often, because there is such honesty, glee, and refusal to put up with nonsense there. I’ve never personally started a Pit thread and probably never will, and I don’t cuss because it’s not my style, but I think the Pit is fundamental to what the SDMB is about. Banning the Pit would be like taking Kurt Vonnegut out of the library because you think his books are crude or tiresome sometimes. Sure they are, but what a loss if we made them disappear.
In what way did my post mischaracterize the function of the Pit in the way you specify?
The fact that you have a Pit does not mean that you should be able to use it to spew vitriol. In other words, it is possible to have a rant without using really obnoxious language. People like me do it every day (or so my students would have me believe :D).
Did the new “Don’t direct obscenities or vulgarities at other posters - this includes everything from “fuck you” on up.” rule come up in discussion after you posted this? Sounds pretty PG13 to me.
Ed: The new Pit rules raise a lot of questions. Here are three; there may be more. I gather this is the proper forum in which to raise them, from the content of the rules – if it is not, would you or one of the Admins. or Mods. please split this post and any responses to it off and put it where it should properly go, please? I do like the idea of greater civility, and want to “play by the rules” – this is asked with good intent, for clarification purposes, not as some sort of challenge to you and the staff.
-
If I or another member feel that some member is consistently making posts merely to raise hackles (trolling in the original Internet sense) or “threadshitting” – posting obnoxious, off-topic remarks in a thread, with much the same purpose – would we be permitted to publicize this in a Pit thread (or perhaps elsewhere), with examples documenting our allegations? While it might be appropriate to report it, would it not be better to address a pattern of behavior in a Pit thread rather than nitpick specific examples by reports?
-
How under the new rules does one deal with a strong personal disagreement regarding board behavior. Purely as an example, if I wanted to complain about Der Trihs’s consistent expressed attitude in GD that religionists are without exception deluded and motivated by a desire to control others, would this be a proper topic for a Pit thread? Or would it fall under no attacks of other members? (In fact, I don’t particularly want to call DT out on this – I let it slide off my back, and value his responses in non-religion threads. I use it purely as a real example, rather than inventing a hypothetical.) For another example, if, say, twickster answering questions about proper usage when writing for publication in GQ, were irritated by Exapno Mapcase’s mantra of descriptivism, that there are no rules governing writing in English, could she challenge what he’s doing in the Pit? (Again no personal attack is intended; I put it forward as a real example only.)
-
If I or someone else felt that a staff decision was unfair, disproportionate, or counterproductive, is there a proper place and tone to say that publicly? (I’d point you, Ed, to two recent cases where you admitted overreacting and reversed or modified your decision – but I’m not sure that’s legal under your new rules.) It seems like there is a lot of gray area between “Lynn Bodoni is a piece of shit” (obviously offensive and unacceptable) and “Fluiddruid made an error of judgment in such-and-such thread in my opinion, and I’d like to draw it to her and management’s attention, for these reasons” which I think is legitimate behavior on the part of a member.
As I said, this isn’t being done to challenge but to ask for clarity on how exactly you want these new rules to work, and what’s permissible and impermissible under them. I welcome clarification.
Count me among those who see no purpose to the Pit. If someone wanted to create an alternate board where vitriol, spite, hurtful words, and vulgarity were all permissible, a place where one could vent an unlimited stream of hatred without fear of the jackboot police, let them do so — if they have not already. I’m sure such a place would fit right in on the Internet.
My spouse used to (operative words) post at a forum that wanted to be family friendly, and took that to mean “If it’s not appropriate to say in front of the cuddly wuddly cute little 4 year old, don’t post it here”.
Grownups cuss from time to time. My posts are probably some of the tamest in the pit, but from time to time “Fuck you” is the absolutely correct thing to say.
This is highly disappointing.
Two decisions:
I will be boycotting the Pit from here on in. Just don’t see the point of a flameless Pit. If you Pit me, you may no longer assume I’ll ever read it.
I will not be renewing my membership on the SDMB, and you may count this as an explicit one-person referendum on the question of “Do you approve of the new Pit rules, consider them fair, appropriate, just, or called-for?”
I’ll be boycotting as well. Not because I think my personal stand will change anything, but because I don’t want to get banned. I mean, imagine another poster implies that all gays and lesbians are disgusting perverts preying on children. I might forget myself and say “Fuck you, asshole. You’re a piece of shit.” Because hey, it’s the Pit, right? The place where I could say something like that for the past 9 years! Only now, I can’t, and old habits die hard. I don’t want to be banned. I don’t even want to be warned! It’s too big of a risk with the new rules.
I don’t have a problem with the new Pit rules. I think if someone is unable to post on a forum without having the need to say “fuck you” to another poster then the problem is not with the forum. I’ve disagreed with many posters over the years and I’ve never had to tell any of them to go fuck themselves.
I read a comment in the BBQ Pit (I think by Giraffe) in a thread discussing the new rules, saying “how can you draw the line between what is an acceptable insult and what isn’t? It’s impossible”. I don’t see that as an unsurmountable hurdle. The same issue happens in, let’s say GD, with the “no calling someone an idiot” rule. There are many other ways to phrase similar sentiments, and the GD mods deal with it. The same thing can happen in the Pit.
As I pointed out in this parallel thread, I suspect the intention may be to close the Pit for the very reason you have suggested.
Yes, but if you get it wrong, you risk being banned.
Remember how we had to argue to be allowed to accuse someone of being a troll? Well, isn’t this the exact opposite?
What’s the point of the Pit, now? If anything, I’d say it’s probably the most popular forum here-or at least, it is with me. What’s the point of HAVING the Pit-why not just do away with it altogether? I’m guessing that everyone is probably just going to start “Pitting” people on the SDMB Live Journal community from here on out. This is just getting absolutely ridiculous.
Ed, why don’t you LISTEN to your customers for once? I think it’s been pointed out time and again that very, very few of us like these changes here. Pretty soon, you’re not going to have that many posters left.
I’m willing to take that risk. Seeing as how every time I have heard someone say “If you look at a mod cross-eyed you’ll be banned”, I rolled my eyes. Unless you’re a spammer or a returned sock, all the bannings I’ve seen have happened after multiple warnings over a long period of time.