Good point Beer. BTW, I love your sig. I laugh every time I read it.
Although school has once again forced me into lurk mode, I felt compelled to poke in to correct Inertia’s sig line–it’s “Everything looks worse in black and white.”
Kodachrooo-ooo-ooome. . .
Dr. J
Has anyone read the
Left Behind series?
I would say that that pretty much sums up my beliefs on the rapture/second comming issue.
Except I believe that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah and not Moses. Somewhere, I will try to find where, the Bible states that they will be the two men whe never died.
I think that dates are irrelevant. I think we live and grow here to become what God wants and needs us to be, beyond this place. At some time we shall be done, here.
There is, and always has been tribulation. The innocent have suffered from evil, and the pure of heart have been defiled by despair. From all this well of sin, still arise souls that can turn to the Lord, and be loved, and love in return. While that is so, and the purposes of God are unfulfilled, this wicked world will struggle on. Each of us is but a small spark of His divinity, here. When those sparks have grown to be a light enough to illuminate what God wishes to see, he shall come again, as our Lord, to take us onward. It is not a matter of times, or dates, or what goes on here. This whole world is nothing.
He knows every heart, and loves us, each and all. I believe with all my heart that you will know him, and you will freely choose to be loved or be lost. What is eternal in you is that which can grow in love. All else perishes.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son, and believes in Him, may have eternal life, and that I, Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:40
Well, duh, somebody must have changed the keys on this keyboard…
Some believe that Revelation was written after the fall of the Second Temple; and not Jesus centered.
With Revelation removed from the game board how would you concepts of the second coming shape up?
r
I have to agree with the above.
r2?
d2?
Okay, yu can agree if you want.
o
¿
Okay… I’ll play revisionist…
Remove Revelation, and Jesus still comes back.
Where to start where to start…
OT Prophets often speak of the return of the Messiah. The jews see the Messiah coming once to fulfill all the scriptural prophecys. Christians make a discernment of the first (suffering servant) and the second (all power) comings.
Many of the tribulation beliefs stem from the 70th week of Daniel.
Isaiah speaks of the suffering servant as well as the ‘end times’
Same with other OT prophetical passages.
In the NT, the idea of a rapture comes not from Revelation and John the ‘dreamer’ but from Paul, and his letters to the Thessalonians (say it with a lisp, its fun!)
Jesus in his Olivet Discourse (Matt 24) talks about his return and the end of days. (The thread I posted ‘On…was Jesus’ has some good exegeis on this portion of scripture IMO)
Conclusion: Revelation is not the only portion of the Bible that speaks of the Second Coming of Jesus. You can rip it out if you want to, but be aware of the blessing that John writes in the last chapter of the book. Also, it is a pretty cool story.
Peace.
† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13
Is this how the atheist practices the Golden Rule?
Polycarp, a regular and respected poster here since Cotton was a monkey, opened what he believed to be a great debate. He is not a troll. He is not a spammer. He made no outrageous demands. He simply asked that no one crash the thread.
I believe that you are an intelligent man, but that only means that you know what you are doing. I believe that you are a compassionate man, but that only means that you have no compassion to spare for Poly. I believe that you are a thoughtful man, but that only means that Poly wasn’t worth a moment’s pause to think.
David says I’m thin skinned, and I think that’s a fair assessment when I take offense at jokes among atheists and other nonchristians, however tasteless and obscene I might find them to be. But when you stagger into a decent man’s thread like a belligerent drunkard and intentionally reel off a pornographic reference to his God, snickering to yourself as you click the submit button, mindless of either the context or his wishes, then you make atheists look like the face-slapping, hand-stabbing bullies of popular lore.
I’m sure you thought your comment was humorous, but your humor here is like that of the high school kid who teases the fat girl. He has the same inability to muster any self-restraint that you do, but he has excuses: he is a moron; he is immoral; he is a kid. Are you any of these?
Moreover, we believe — fully believe — that, as Christians, we are imbued with the Holy Spirit. That means we believe that Christ dwells within us (yes, David, there is room), and has displaced our nature with His own. You may not realize it, and I can understand that, but when you disrespect Him, particularly in a context like this thread, you are disrespecting us directly. You might disagree, and you’re entitled, but you could at the very least give those of who have shown you our sincerity and goodwill some benefit of the doubt.
If you want to chase down jackasses who behave like they’re on a crusade for God and heave insults at them, I have no problem with that. But this is Poly, people.
I guess, if you’ve made it this far in this post, by now your eyes are wide in their sockets, your lips are pursed in indignation, and your fingers are ready to snap off another witty Jesus torpedo. If you don’t mind, please take it to some other thread.
Thanks.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Poly:
You asked me to give my own words to the interpretation I laid out of the “second coming” of Christ. Your summary expressed it nicely, and here is some underlying analysis.
The passage previously cited is a cornucopia of person and number for the same verb from which God takes His name, to be. It is also a mind boggling exercise in the absolute ablative, as in, “I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” Jesus’ mastery of Greek grammar displays often, and is contextually consistent.
In this passage, Jesus identifies Himself as the Truth. Then he promises that His Father, having sent this Truth as the Living Word to teach and plant seed, will resend that Spirit of Truth not only as a Teacher, but as a Counselor — excuse me, another Counselor (Who but He was the Other One?). Immediately upon identifying this Counselor, Jesus notes that He will not leave His disciples as orphans. The unpunctuated Greek can be easily interpreted so that this clause, “I will not leave you as orphans,” is dependent upon the precedent clause, “But you know him [the Counselor], for he lives with you and will be in you.” In other words, “You won’t be abandoned; you will have a Counselor.”
Now, He is in the Father, the Father is in Him, the Counselor is in us, He is in us, we are in Him, and having seen Him, we have seen the Father. You see what I mean about ablativity?
It makes perfect sense to me. First, send an empathetic Being to live life with us and teach us of His nature. Then, when His purpose is finished, resurrect Him and send His Spirit to dwell in those whom He taught.
It is all One anyway: the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit — and yes, us.
I’m curious whether you think you can also see some of these things, and perhaps others, in the passage.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Lib, your sense of indignation is warranted.
This remark is not:
Atheists have not cornered the market on bullying.
Christians have also done their fair share in that department.
I’ll go back to lurk mode now.
Please continue with your discussion.
Stop telling God what to do.
Wally:
Correct, and worth noting, thanks. Neither you nor I give any quarter to the O’Hairs or the Swaggarts.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Absolutely, Lib.
Extremism of whatever stripe is appalling to me.
Tris - wow. I’m gonna print that one out, and put it up on my wall.
tracer,you seem awfully obcessed with sex lately.Got a problem?
Poly? Hello?
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
One question to y’all who are more up on the Bible than I: I seem to recall that only 144,000 male virgins are going to be raptured. But then some others say all “true Christians” get raptured. Which is it and where did my misconception come from (if you can tell)?