“When the only reason I have to show up on time is because the other person might have to wait a few minutes, my opinions on time do not grant it the same weight as other things. When the reason I have to show up on time is critical to events then that is another matter…”
I was just so happy to find a point I had to quote it for the benefit of future scholars.
i.e. your friend’s time is not important. You claim that you respect your friend’s time, but when he’s gonna spend a half hour with his thumb up his ass, you don’t give it ‘weight’. You admit that there are situations where you will make damn sure to be on time, but sparing your friend a boring wait isn’t one of them, that is disrespect.
What’s the difference? Both are activities that most of society find disrespectful. Neither physically harms the other person. Only difference I can see is that one you do and one you don’t, and therefore find offensive.
But that doesn’t work. Either
I can’t see how you can blend the two attitudes. Please enlighten.
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No. The latter case isn’t being rude. Unless you correct their perception of you, they will expect what they deem to be expected. No one plays 20 questions before interacting. In the former case, if you agreed to a time, you ARE being rude.
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It’s not. You aren’t forced to commit to a time. If you do, it’s not honoring that commitment that’s rude. Don’t make any such commitments if you believe such commitments are against your beliefs of what’s important.
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“…unless it ruins my schedule”
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In essence, if after making a commitment and not communication your tardiness, you still believe the first statement, you are showing disrespect to the other person. You are also saying that respecting your friend is not a critical event even if your friend prefers punctuality.
Please, show some respect for those who have unfortunately had contact with baby killers. 
The two are not comparable, of course. I believe that there is enough of a societal expectation that people show up on time that not conforming to such is rude, but there’s a wide gulf between being rude and being a murderer.
I would have thought there was one for throwing shit, too, but we learn something every day.
There’s a hell of a gulf between being a feces-thrower and a baby-killer. Shit flingers are a lot more tolerable than those who commit infanticide, especially to the families of the victims. IMO, it’s disrespectful to those who have been harmed by infanticide to compare it to something as trivial as not being on time.
To get back to the point, it’s been pointed out a bit that it shows disrespect to another to be constantly late. We agree on 8, barring any major event I will be there by 8:05, at the latest. If you’re not there by 8:15, I’m leaving – I don’t want to feel disrespected, so I’m not waiting.
Eris, I do get what you’re saying. But your conditional statement has a major flaw: you can not be considered “late” unless you have previously agreed to be somewhere at a specific time.
That’s what I’m saying. You may feel that asking you to pin down a specific time is the same as expecting you to adopt to my standards, ergo, I’m being as rude as I’m accusing you of being (which I haven’t actually done, by the way). The sticking point for me is that asking =! expecting, at least in my world (the sky is blue here, by the way 
).
No one is forcing you to agree to a time. We all have free will, don’t we? If you don’t want to be forced, rudely in your opinion, to have your extra-cirricular activities timetabled, then you just don’t agree to specific meeting times. But the mere act of asking for one doesn’t automatically mean there is an expectation of your adopting to their schedule. That comes only after you agree to a time. And I firmly feel that if upon being asked, you agree to a time, then they have every right to expect you to honour that agreement, nor is it rude for them to do so.
Exactly. If society didn’t work that way (on a timetable) then there wouldn’t be characterizations of people “in society who are late, and people in society who are early” etc.
Um, almost everyone. I think I’ve been reasonable and polite throughout this whole thread and haven’t once resorted to calling you anything of the sort.
My turn to rejoice in reiteration! I do not think you’re a jerk, or rude, or an SOB, or any other negative adjective. I think I even stated in my first post that I’ve liked what you have to say outside of this post.
I apologise if I got the wrong impression and maligned your character, but until this very post you never stated that you say anything to people with whom are in contact. At least I haven’t seen anything - I’m willing to concede that I missed it if it’s here.
Yep, just like he is saying that respecting my lifestyle is not an important part of liking me. Just. like. it.
Gyan9
Oh, of course not! I can always choose to not be their friend, of course. Hobson? Paging Hobson? Huh, he’s not here yet. Must be late.
And if we were talking about a chance interaction you’d be absolutely correct. Funny thing is, we’re not. Try to keep up.
So that’s it! The analogy has to hold, right? Of course! What other differences could there possibly be between throwing shit and being late? I can’t think of any! Case closed! ::dusts off hands::
Well, that’s silly. It isn’t just my friend’s time, it is mine, too. Or would that ruin your precious little analysis where we only consider one party in the equation?
PunditLisa
:smack: I forgot the one billion red chinese can’t be wrong argument!! How stupid of me. I shall repent immediately. There is no double standard. There never was a double standard.
lel
Not touching that bait. Try again.
I believe he meant a wide gulf between feces-throwers and chronically late people.
I have to agree with him that that was a deeply stupid analogy.
If you’re usually on time for specific timings, then you don’t really have a problem with being late.
erislover, I think it’s time you took a good look around and reminded yourself; if EVERYONE ELSE thinks you’re a dickhead, and you disagree, it’s usually the case that there’s something you don’t understand.
Being late isn’t a “lifestyle,” dummy.
Give it up, already Eris. Just what exactly keeps your life so very busy that you can’t make or keep commitments to other people?
Are you a drug kingpin, mafia don, or are you the MOLE ™?
What is so hard about being polite? To people you love, at least, like friends and family. Why is this even an issue for you?
It’s exactly analogous: with your behavior, you’re shitting on your friends and family. One is figuritive, the other not.
Yeah, me too. I’m pretty much at my limit for rude, self-absorbed, inconsiderate, disrespectful, arrogant, immature asshats. Not that it matters, since it’s not likely you’d even fucking show up for a meeting with anyone, whether you gave a shit about them or not.
Fine, then, my example was too extreme. What’s less so? Talking aloud during movies. Spitting constantly. Not bathing at all. Picking my nose. Calling you some kind of offensive name. Take your pick or add one of your own. The point is - at what point is something “just part of who I am that you have to accept” and at what point is it something that I need to get the fuck over because it’s rude and wrong? How many people have to think I’m an asshole before I’m really an asshole and not just a misunderstood free spirit?
The point here is, of course, moot. I have no time-sensitive interactions with erislover. Erislover presumably has friends he/she interacts with who either accept this or at least tolerate it. And I think we’re in holy war territory, where neither side is going to agree with the other.
As I’ve said before, the people in real life I have encountered who are habitually late were largely self-absorbed people. This manifested in other ways as well - they couldn’t sympathize with anyone else, they demanded everyone cater to their whims, they pouted when they didn’t get their way, and they refused to ever admit they could possibly be wrong about anything. This thread hasn’t gone any way towards making me feel otherwise. But as I said, I suppose that doesn’t really matter.
Best analogy that I can come up with: saying, “I’ll call you tomorrow” when what you really meant was, “I’ll call you when I feel like it. It might be tomorrow, it might be next week”.
To me, being late is about not honouring a commitment, albeit a relatively minor one in the grand scheme of life. If one doesn’t feel one can be somewhere at X time, then they shouldn’t agree to be at that place at X time.
Just because I thought your analogy was poor, doesn’t mean I’m not on your side of the argument. About lateness, not Eris. I’m downright anal about being on time, to the point that I’m at least 10-15mins early for just about everything (except work :p).
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As I’ve said before, the people in real life I have encountered who are habitually late were largely self-absorbed people.
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My aunt is one of those chronically late people. You’ll have to take my word for it that she’s not self-absorbed or any of the other things you listed. I love her more than anyone else on this planet, but the woman is just utterly incapable of being on time for anything. I don’t understand it - she’s had 60+ years to figure out how long it takes her to leave the house and presumably she’d know how long it’s going to take her to get somewhere. So what’s the fucking problem?
It really stresses me out and I used to hate doing things with her because it’s important for me to be on time and she would always be late picking me up (it was always her idea to pick me up). I’ve solved this problem by insisting on meeting her wherever we go if it’s something where time is important (ie. a movie). Now it doesn’t bother me if she’s late, because I’m already doing what I planned on doing, and if she’s late and misses something, oh well - it’s her problem.
Do you expect people who are being told by people that they’re inconsiderate, rude, and shitting on people to not respond by speaking about themselves? People who feel they’re under unreasonable attack are entirely likely to talk about themselves, because that’s the topic under discussion, so it seems somewhat disingenuous to me to say that that’s evidence of being self-absorbed.
There are people who value scheduling and timekeeping; there are people who don’t. There are people who are helped by scheduling and timekeeping; there are people who derive no benefit from it and also no harm; there are also people who can get royally tangled up in them. There are people who can adapt from their preferences to accomodate others easily; there are people who find it very difficult. All of these people exist. Most are entirely capable of having happy lives to their own standards. Some will hold that their standards have objective merit.
Such is life.
I. Do. Not. Agree. To. Such. Things. Unless. People. Are. So. Pushy. That. They. Do. Not. Accept. Anything. Else. It happens, you know. Punctuality is not a sign of politeness, and punctual people are not necessarily polite themselves.
I say something. Over and over. Much like I do here, in this thread.
Wow, I thought I just said I didn’t think people asking me to be on time was rude. How about that! Must’ve been someone else. I’ll tell you what, Mauvaise, when you believe I try solutions to make other people happy that run the gamut from doing something as simple as “saying something” to more “elaborate” schemes like making full-on compromises, I promise to stop pretending like you called me names (which I haven’t, you are just an unfortunate bystander in a hasty generalization meant to make sentence more readable and concise else I’d have to put something like this in just about every one I’ve addressed to you). I have no problem with people I hang out with, and I definitely do not have a problem with you.
And of course asking doesn’t equal expecting in my world either. It is “If you can’t make it at 7 then say 7:30” mentality that is not asking, it is telling: pick a fucking time, erl.
Maybe you won’t believe this, but try it. I don’t know what else to do, and you seem nice enough and I have a recollection of a very nice exchange between us (though I can’t recall the exact circumstances, I’m sorry, just that you… well, I remember the event, not the substance behind it other than niceness) (wow that sounds much dirtier than it is, guys, honest) in the past, so maybe this will work.
Try it. Try being the late person for just a week or so. Try to avoid referencing specific times with everyone you know. I mean, do not commit to anything without at least +/- 30 mintues around it. Nothing. (excepting tasks necessary for survival, of course, let’s not lose a job over it or anything). Take everyone’s advice in this thread with how to “deal” with it. For maximum effectiveness it should be longer than a week but it would stop being an experiment by that time.
Try being the late person. See what it is like to deal with The Punctual Ones. See how easy it is to just say something. See their irritation when you are ten minutes late (and don’t give a reason, those are just excuses and aren’t worth anything). You, Tris, and quite a few others in here (hi Scotti!) seem like genuinely caring individuals, honestly, I don’t hesitate to say that. So try it, if you want. But you’ve got to go whole hog (again, excepting), I mean, don’t reference exact times and if you do get forced into it then be late. Since you are a punctual person you should have no problem simulating lateness.
Then say to yourself: wow, it isn’t easy, if I didn’t perceive time like other people it might really feel much different to interact with myself. Do I want to play the victim? Maybe if I felt like one, which I don’t. I just want you to see how not necessarily easy it is to “just” work with people on this. I mean, look at some of the responses in this thread. People quit being friends with people over this, you think they’ll just easily take to “saying something”? Ten minutes is enough for genuine irritation, think you’ll be able to pull off talking them into accepting it beforehand? Easy to call someone… but they’ll be waiting either way, whether you call them or not, won’t they? And you think that phone call makes them that much happier about it? It is easy to say “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time” when you support the law in the first place. (victimhood analogy not intended)
Or maybe it will prove to your satisfaction that others are right and you will join them in calling me rude. :shrug: I honestly don’t know. I think I am right about this (well, that much should be clear! :p), so I think there is a lesson to learn here.
Yep, just that simple. When you find Hobson you let me know because Gyan9 was looking for him. (I do not think people are being rude still 
I am feigning returning the rudeness to people who insist on telling me I am rude, hoping against hopes to demonstrate what I think is a point, that they have a double standard. They do not get to call me rude just because of an opinion they hold; if they did, then I would get to do the same thing as them. In logic we would call that a universal substitution: the argument still holds whether we exchance A for ~A.)
Sometimes I feel that way; like, when I voluntarily accept a time. Other times I do feel excessively pressured to pick a time. Again, they don’t seem to care what time, just a time. So I say, ok, ok, 7:30, and though I tell myself, “Yep, I’ll be there” as the time draws near I forget about actually agreeing to a specific time or I think I’m early and have time to stop off for some gum or something and next thing you know I’m late. Was gum more important than this person at any time? Was my time more important than seeing them? Nope, not even for a second. (and I’m not saying you are saying so) Unless we are going to start speculating on my subconscious motivations, in which case let’s see the degree, bub. (and I’m not saying you are saying so)
Society also has tall people, short people, fat people, and skinny people. Which one of them run the clocks? The point being: there is a standard for keeping time because, as no one denies, it is sometimes necessary. It is not always necessary. It is definitely not a way to ascribe value to people nor motivations to them (not that you are). It is a clock.
My moral compass, though relative to me and the way I was raised in the society I live in, does not have a chronometer.
Again, I thought I noted that once already, and I feel like I am being nice to you but my method of speaking, I have been told, is often quite cumbersome and I felt that having already noted that there was no hostility between us was enough to allow such generalizations. I’m sorry. I thought you understood.
See how accomodating I am? 
How else does one compromise and work on resolving issues without communication? Maybe that’s what I’m missing… that these things just take care of themselves for everyone but me, and that’s why people keep telling me to “just say something”.
I always knew there was a secret club I wasn’t a member of! Well, no matter, I’d never make the meetings anyway.
Finally, to milroyj
Nothing at all. What is so hard about seeing that not everyone views habitual punctuality as a standard of politeness? That’s the $25,000 question, good sir. See if you can figure it out. When you do, please post it here. Your insight into the matter might be just what this thread needs. Next stop: rocket science!
Unless we’re reading different threads, not everyone does. It isn’t like I’ve never admitted being wrong before. I am not immune to criticism, never have been. I’ve gone from Randista to a left libertarian. I’ve gone from the government shouldn’t intervene in shit to supporting nationalized health care and a public education system. I’ve gone from thinking there is an objective morality to thinking there isn’t. That’s what less than two years on this board has given me. Maybe you think those are stupid, too, I don’t know, those are other threads. But if anything is true, I am not immune to people’s arguments.
Now what argument exactly were you going to pull out that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that time is so precious that even if I don’t agree I should accept it anyway? I’m not going anywhere. Make your case. Since this is the pit, you can say “fuck” and everything, just like a big kid.
No, being late is the consequence of a lifestyle, poopy-head. And, I might add, one that normally doesn’t give me one bit of time-related stress. People stress because of time, well, that’s a different matter, isn’t it? Wait, not to you, because time and the way people view it are linked inexorably to all sorts of behavioral conditions. Why? BECAUSE, that’s why. Sorry, lost my reasonin’ skills for a second, there.
I am perfectly willing to agree that Pushy=Rude. I think it would be better to tell them that I think they are being rude to push me when I don’t have a definitive answer rather than “giving in” and then just not following through. In that case, both parties are being rude. (Which ahem may have been your point – why didn’t you start with this damn paragraph in the first place?)
I disagree with the last sentence, however, because I do believe that punctuality is a sign of politeness. I will give you the fact that punctual people are not always poilte (as evidenced in this thread alone - not by me though :p). And late people aren’t necessarily impolite - it depends, in my opinion, on the motives behind the actions.
It may be that some people, myself included, aren’t going to be happy accepting a 3 hour (for example) window for a meet time. I guess that’s where the compromise comes in - find that acceptable +/- time for all parties involved. (Again, assuming it isn’t for something that has a definite start time like the 5:00 showing of Whatever.)
For example, my aunt. I don’t think she’s being rude by being late, because I don’t think she’s doing it because of some hidden agenda. She is just incapable of being on time - probably because it doesn’t really matter to her if she’s late. Do I still do things with her? Sure, often. I just make sure I drive myself if it’s something important so I’m not late. If it’s not, I don’t sweat it if she’s 20 or 30 minutes late because I’ve come to accept that she always will be.
The fact is when I stumble across a post of yours, the overwhelming majority of the time I make a mental note that I like what you have to say, on many different levels. Because of that this thread threw me so I’m debating/arguing because I really want to understand where you’re coming from and I want you to understand me as well.
I think we’ve done that as best as we are going to be able to do, but there’s just no way either of us are going to win the other over to the “Right” side. I’m ok with that and the fact that I (strongly) disagree with your concept of time and punctuality really does little to change my (rather high) opinion of you. Why is that? Because I don’t believe your motives are suspect.
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(wow that sounds much dirtier than it is, guys, honest)
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More’s the pity
:eek: :eek: :eek: What, I don’t already have enough stress in my life?
I realise my punctuality borders on the obsessive, and I do try to bear that in mind when dealing with people, which is why I don’t start getting antsy until 10+ minutes. But see, I don’t get pissed at their rudeness, I get stressed because I’m going to be late and have no control to change that. Which is why I really prefer to meet people places rather than doing a carpool thing. I don’t want to put pressure on people because of my own obsession and I want to avoid as much stress.
And you want me to do that on PURPOSE??? Allow me to repeat: :eek: I can’t even read the rest of this test again without getting tense.
It goes back to the “It’s the polite thing to do”. Five or ten minutes, I don’t sweat it, but longer than ten minutes, sure a phone call would be nice because then it would enable me to make a decision. Maybe I’d want to meet them in the movie theatre instead. If it’s a dinner thing - knowing they will be late and about how long, I could have a drink at the bar, maybe get an appetizer too if I was starving.
Is this a case of “It’s better to ask forgiveness than permission”? I don’t necessarily agree with that - just wondering if that’s your viewpoint.
I already feel that I’m right, can’t you tell? I won’t be joining in name calling in this instance though.
Well, it should be.
I think we are both being very pleasant and I certainly have no complaints in the way you’ve been speaking to me. I was just making perfectly sure that you knew I am not part of the pile on, despite the fact that I disagree with you.
Not on time, at any rate.
{Disclaimer} It’s now way way past my bedtime so forgive any typos, run-on sentences, improper paragraphing (and if that isn’t a word, it is now), spelling errors, coding erros, or anything that is too disjointed to make sense.
Part of my point, but then I don’t get to make a massive “list attack”. Patent Pending. I like the list attack. 
Patent Pending.
Well, that’s one for the dogs, then. I honestly got nothing to give you here on that one other than what was already said. I had no plans on convincing anyone otherwise, of course (not that it wouldn’t be nice). But what I had to say couldn’t be said in the IMHO threads that started this. Seems like some people were holding back in there as well, so all the better for everyone.
Again, not always. There is more than one way to skin a cat. There are a lot of things for each situation that can affect the way time is handled.
Of course.
See, I knew we could see a movie together! How’s 9-ish? Movie starts at ten but we have to get some junk food before hand.
Well I do, you sound like the majority of punctual people I know. They deal, I deal, and it really all works out (much to the dismay of the pundits I’m sure). Or so I think it does, anyway… I sure haven’t lost any friends over it.
Putting ‘right’ in quotes is all I need to see. You are a gentleman and a sch… I mean a lady and a… I mean… DAMN. Sexism in common phrases is my NEXT rant :eek:
Now how am I supposed to maintain a good bitchin’-up-a-storm in light of this, huh? No fair!
Well, lol, I can see that this test might be way out of line. But I used to be a punctual person, [story ommitted], and I’ve been much happier since. Maybe that borders on witnessing, take it to GD erl if you’re going to get all spiritual about it.
And see, this is an example of rudeness, I’ll agree here. Because there are times when all of us have to bite the bullet on things. In a carpool situation, even for simple outings instead of, say, work, one late person does impose a standard on everyone else, because they are all sharing the same object. This is different than, say, meeting at a bar with a group of people arriving separately, where one person’s lateness doesn’t spoil anyone’s affair. We all bite the bullet in innumerable cases like this. I’ve never been late because of a carpool. I’ve never been late picking peole up for one.
Now, saying that is probably going to keep me in hot water with some people here who insist I am thus demonstrating that I hold arbitrary people from work to be more important than my friends, but I can’t avoid that any more.
I am often late when it doesn’t matter if I am late. The situations where it matters are not always consistently agreed upon. It doesn’t always matter, and I am not always late (indeed, it is pretty much impossible to be always late).
Often a conflicting goal, isn’t it? Because it isn’t just late people, I’ve seen early people get mad at punctual people! :eek: That one still blows my mind, but maybe another time we can unravel that mystery.
Oh, I wasn’t saying that I wouldn’t call, but saying that making the call won’t change me being late, and when that lateness is precisely the issue, the suggestion to make a phone call is really quite empty for that problem, not for other reasons (which are separate from time).
No, not really, just another example where it seems “just don’t do it” is the answer, when in fact all it does is evade the question.
Perhaps it should. But I used to be a punctual person, and I’m much happier this way because it reduced a lot of stress and only added marginally more of a different kind. It was like switching apartments for cheaper rent, sure you still pay, just not as much. So convincing me might take a lot of work. Then again, it might not.
Now where did I put that “sycophant” shirt…
What’s the problem? Just spell right. It’s that easy. ;j 