Yet again, hypocricy rules.
“The reason it didn’t enter my mind to suggest I show up on time, PunditLisa, is because I was listing YOUR options. You can only control YOUR behavior. You can’t force other people to conform to your stodgy schedules or force them to believe that your behavior isn’t an imposition.”
Now, care to make an argument that won’t beg the question?
Or hypocrisy, even. Sheesh, how long have I been misspelling that sucker? 
Yep, that’s a choice I love: the ultimatum! Boy you people sure are friendly and courteous! I’m overflowing with love! Stop before I burst with happiness, please!
I am always early for EVERYTHING. If I am on time, I feel like I was late. Just me, and only for my own neurosis do I feel that way. I would never feel that someone ELSE who was on time was “late.”
However, some of the people I love are chronically late. One of them, ironically, is my brother. I mean, he was raised with me…how on earth did we end up with such different time “values?” Dunno, but…hey, I love him. After awhile, my family started telling him that we were sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner (for example) at X time…if he wished to join us then, that is when dinner started. AND…we started asking him to bring dessert instead of the vegetable dish. You do what you need to do to make things work.
I also have friends who are chronically late. I love them…I make allowances. I always bring a book, and I expect them to be late. I don’t understand it…it seems to me that if you are ALWAYS half-an-hour late, you should understand that you need to add half-an-hour to your estimation of how long it is going to take for you to get somewhere. However, I love them. So…as stated, I make provisions for my “down time” and I make allowances for THEM. Because…I love them.
Doesn’t seem like rocket science to me. You love someone, you make allowances for their shortcomings. And YES…I DO consider it a shortcoming to be chronically late. I just don’t put in the catagory of unforgivable things. Instead, I deal with it. Because…(chant with me again…I know you are all thinking it… and with :rolleyes: ) I LOVE them.
HAHA, don’t I know it! I am not always 30 minutes late, but I’ve got to admit I honestly do not know what I am failing to take into account when I am late by whatever time. Sometimes what happens is I leave way early (if I have the time) and then, on my way, think, “Well, I’ll be early, so I’ve got time to stop for such and such anyway” and there you have one such possibility. 
Well, I consider it a mistake to hold time that important, but I agree it doesn’t stop me from caring about the people I care about. 
erislover, I have many bad habits, the point is I know this and I do not try to pretend they are virtues when in fact they are bad habits. I warn friends if my negatives are likely to impact on them and suggest ways they can help so all our lives go easier.
I am sorry, I just never remember birthdays, I rarely check my diary and half the time have no idea what year it is, let alone day and month. I would really hate to miss celebrating yours so please call me a week before and remind me so I can buy you something splendid
We work together to make up for my named inadequancy. I do not walk around telling folks that they are imposing their values on me if I miss their birthdays.
If you have a problem with punctuality admit it and work with your friends so that they are not put out by you. Yes, it is putting me out to leave me waiting on a street corner for an hour. Sure I can read a book but I would rather be at home for that extra hour even if I am just reading a book in my favourite chair. You cannot in any decency decide it is ok for me to wait for you, only I can do that.
I am sure you have many good points, this is not one of them. Please stop trying to sell it as though it is somehow honourable. You lie when you say you will be there at 7 and then don’t bother. Lying to friends is not honourable. Instead you can say
I am not terribly punctual though I will do my best. I don’t want you hanging about waiting for me so I’ll give you a call when I am leaving.
Now that is honourable.
But, like it or not, that’s the way society works. And whether you like it or not (and believe me, I dislike it quite often myself so I defintely won’t argue with you on how fucked up society is in general), you are a part of society.
Just about everything is run on a timetable so it seems a little… I don’t know, unrealistic (?) to want people to view time with the same lassez faire attitude as you have. I’m not saying your attitude is wrong, it’s just not an easy one for most people to accept.
I think what some people are saying (although not very tactfully 
) is that if you don’t want to conform to prescribed meeting times, etc., then just tell people that to begin with. Allow them to make an informed decision whether they are willing, on that day, or whenever, to make that compromise with regards to their time, which may be important to them.
I’m not saying that you should change who you are to conform to my value of time, but nor should you expect me to just accept that you place no value on time. Is there a way to compromise when two people hold such diametrical ways of life?
Err, I meant to say in my previous post:
…nor should you expect me to just accept that you place no value on time and therefore neither should I.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that you don’t give a flying fuck about time.
But this IS what you’re doing, whether you want to admit it or not. Okay, say we agree to meet somewhere at 8. I, being a reasonably punctual person, show up at or very close to the agreed upon time. You, not feeling schedules are important, show up at, what, 8:30? 9? So you’re saying I should wait around patiently, wasting my time, knowing this is just how you are. Or perhaps I should also take my time, not care about the agreed upon time, and show up whenever I get around to it? Fine, but then I’m changing the way I am. Do you ever make an effort to show up early or at the agreed upon time? Judging from your attidude towards time expressed in this thread, I’m guessing not. So where exactly is the mutual concessions you talk about? I’ve made allowances, you haven’t.
Look, I’m not saying any of this makes you an evil person. As I said, my best friend has a similar problem showing up on time, and although it certainly annoys me at times, it hasn’t affected my opinion of him. But what really gets me about your argument is your refusal to understand why it’s inconsiderate to make other people wait, or change who they are to meet what you are (and I’m sorry, but yes, I do firmly believe that’s what you’re doing, at least from the arguments you’ve put forth here).
THIS is your problem. NO ONE is forcing you to make a promise. IMHO, you promise a time because the other person will not make a date without a time. That’s why you feel “forced”.
So, if you make such a promise feeling as you do about time, and then not feeling bound by it, you are LYING.
Try this. Make your dates, and refuse to give a time. How many people will take you up on it? And if they refuse, it’s THEIR fault?
I really can’t add any more to what so many others have said. If you make dates (with times attached), and fail to keep them, it’s YOUR problem, YOUR fault, and YOUR rude behavior. Not anyone else’s.
So be honest with your friends. DON’T make time commitments, and don’t imagine they can “force” you to.
Eris
It usually helps me if I describe how things would be if there were no problem, rather than try to describe what the problem is.
So, here is what it is like, when I have no problem, and I have a friend who doesn’t much care about schedules, or punctuality.
So, Larry made no promises he isn’t going to keep, and I made sure he understood that we are not going to leave things undecided because he is late. No one promised anyone anything that he wasn’t willing to deliver. Larry is going to miss out on some of the activity, but that’s his choice. The rest of us will decide for ourselves whether having Larry around for the last half of a planning session is worth it, when we decide to have another one.
It would be quite a bit different for an actual third party scheduled event. I probably wouldn’t invite Larry to such a thing at all, knowing his reluctance to abide by a clock. In fact, there are a whole lot of social things I would never mention to Larry. He doesn’t want to be somewhere at a specific time. It’s how he feels, and I don’t really mind that, but since it is so minor a thing to me, I am involved in a lot of things that do happen according to schedules. Other peoples schedules, and my own schedule. I would never mention any of them before the fact to Larry. Why should I? He doesn’t want to go. He as much as said nothing is important to him, unless it just happens to be a time when he is not doing anything, and he also happens to be in the place where the thing is happening.
Nazism is not really a part of it. I don’t want to limit my life to only those things that happen to occur as I am walking by. I don’t want to limit my contacts with close friends to the coincidence of being the same place where they happen to be, at a lucky moment when something we both like to do is happening. So, I make plans, and schedule things. If my friends don’t want that, fine. But I would expect them to be honest with me about it.
Now, in the example above, if Larry had said “Yeah, I’ll be there”, and then had walked in at nine thirty, I would have been a bit nonplussed. “Dude, the thing is almost over. We thought you decided to can it.”
Comes the day of the street scene, then Larry has a choice to make. Is he going to keep his word, or not? This thing happens only with down to the second timing. Everyone has to be on their mark, and moving in the right direction at the exact second, or very close to it. Larry can do it. But if he doesn’t want to, he has to admit it up front, and say he can’t be a part of our street scene. Doing anything else is damned rude. Lots of people put effort into this, and being late means it doesn’t happen at all. So, he can show up and watch, with the citizens, or miss it all. But he can’t pretend that he is going to be there, and then be surprised when we notice he wasn’t there, after all.
So, describe how your party happens. When should we say we are going to come, and when should we actually be there? It’s your house, man, so let us know. We don’t want to be rudely punctual, you know?
Tris
Um…sweetie, you DO understand that I am on YOUR side here? I have “shortcomings” of my own that I know annoy my loved ones. I KNOW that it annoys people that I have paperwork and stuff on the passenger seat of my car…and I have to toss it into my equally cluttered back seat of the car in order to allow them to ride with me. Hey, I don’t like it either. Actually, I consider it a shortcoming myself. But it works for ME to conduct my life out of my car (sort of) and I expect people who love me to allow me my idiocyncrasies. ( I know I spelled that wrong, no need to ream me a new sinus cavity, thank you.)
You love someone, you allow them to be imperfect. You know they are always late? You expect it and make allowances for it. And you BRING A BOOK!!! Or at least, that is what I do.
So, you don’t want to agree on a time to meet someone. I’ll see you at the diner…sometime.
What planet are you from.
You would prefer to leave things fast and loose so that if YOU decide to show up, someone may be there to meet you.
You would rather have people wait for you.
I picture your life as rather aimless. Kinda sounds fun. But I need to plan to see the people that I want to be with. I can’t count on just bumping into them. I don’t live on the Seinfeld set.
Tell me. In what circumstance, when meeting someone, should a time not be set. I can think of a few. But I really wonder what your take is on it.
That may be how it is in your family erl, but that’s not the way it is in my family. I can say dinner will be ready at 2pm (although it actually won’t be ready until about 2:30), and I can absolutely guarantee that at least one group won’t get there until 3pm. If dinner’s at 2, and you get there at 12 you’re not really late, even if everyone else got there at 11. If dinner’s at 2 and you get there at 3, you are.
Well, now that depends. Usually, when I arrange to go to the movies with someone, we’re planning to see a particular movie at a particular time, so we’ll arrange to meet at say 6:30 to go to the 7:30 showing of Movie X. If the person I’m meeting arrives too late to get to the 7:30 show, I might not be able to wait for the next show. Maybe I have to get up really early the next morning, or my babysitter has to leave by a certain time. Or maybe I can still make the later show, and I’m annoyed because I, too, had other ways to use the time I spent waiting for them. If I’m suposed to meet someone at 7, and I get there at 7 and have to wait for them till 7:30, that’s a half-hour I spent at the meeting place. That’s not the way I would have chosen to spend my time. It’s one thing if it’s an emergency or something unexpected. But if you’re a half-hour late to meet me because you wanted to finish a chore, does it never occur to you that I might have had a better use for that half- hour than waiting for you? Or that I might have made different plans if I knew you weren’t going to make the 7:30 show?
There are things you really can’t be late for. But those generally aren’t things for which a specific appointment are made. If a bunch of my friends generally hang out in a particular bar on Friday nights, no one is going to get upset because a particular person is late or doesn’t show up. But that’s a very different situation from me and and one other person deciding to meet at the bar at 8:00 Saturday night. I don’t like drinking alone, so I won’t be happy to wait until 8:30. Telling you I’ll be home watching the baseball game Tuesday night and inviting you over to watch it with me is different from me inviting you to dinner at 7:00 Tuesday night.
And if you plan to be there between seven and seven-thirty, and they want a more precise time, and you don’t mind waiting, then why exactly can’t you say 7:30 and be there between 7 and 7:30 ? I don’t particularly like arranging to meet people with such a vague time (it’s fine if one of us is picking the other up at home) because I don’t want to get there at 7:00 and wait until 7:30 for you, and I don’t want to get there at 7:30 , causing you to have waited a half-hour.
I am here to say that Erislover has his head so far up his ass he’s bumping into tomorrow’s turd.
I AM NOT PRETENDING ANYTHING. Nor am I claiming it is a virtue. What the holy fuck have I even been typing here?!?!
It is not good or bad, virtue or vice, rude or polite, it is how I do things. Good, virtuous, polite people work with me on it just like I work with them on it.
As do I. I also warn them when we have personality conflicts that are not a matter of negative or positive value-judgments. My warning of a potential conflict of interest does not demand that it is my flaw (or a flaw) any more than it demands it is theirs.
FUCKING A PEOPLE.
IF it is the case that I am being rude in my habitual lateness, IT IS ALSO the case that you are being rude by expecting me to adopt your standards. Your argument is a double edged sword so fucking DROP IT. That is what I am saying.
IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF
I am using a conditional statement to point out a fucking double standard. What the fuck is so hard about that? Do we all speak English? Even as a third language? Hello?
Yes, I am rude—if I already assume that being late is rude. Which is just what is fucking in question here, because I might as well assume that expecting everyone to be on time is rude. Yep, I might, but I don’t.
I DO NOT think anyone is imposing on me intentionally, and I definitely do not think anyone is rude about it. BUT IF YOU CALL ME RUDE I WILL RETURN THAT FAVOR. It is just as easy to make capricious value judgments both ways.
If no one gets this after this post, you may add “Stupid” to your fucking location.
I do not have a “problem” with punctuality any more than someone else has a “problem” with forcing punctuality.
It is no more honorable than a punctual person saying, “I am terribly punctual though I will do my best to not expect you to do everything like I do it. I’ll try not to hold your lateness against you.”
Mauvaise
Society doesn’t “work” any way or another. There are people in society who are late, and people in society who are early, and people in society who are punctual. All of them are in it. That works.
Indeed, if I demanded they see time my way you’d be so 100% right that I couldn’t agree with you more without kissing your feet and wearing a shirt that said “SYCOPHANT” on it. I’d agree with everyone here that I’m a rude SOB, and selfish, and so on. I really would; expecting people to live like you is the peak of rudeness.
Yay, I get to repeat it! (this really is a favorite saying since I’ve heard it) “Nothing has ever been more effective in the history of mankind than the saying of something.” Really, you must think I am a real jerk if you think I don’t even try to say something. Have I really given you the impression for all my talk of compromise that I say nothing? 
[on preview, this goes for Tris, too)
Of course there is! Maybe some day we can try it in practice. As you might hazard to guess, it is not something I can just write rules for. How much we (hypothetically) would compromise on anything, or how we would go about it, is another matter entirely than whether we would. I have yet to meet a person I can’t compromise with, though. IRL I am quite possibly more giving that I sound here when the issues are so focused on particular aspects.
As one example, we might agree to meet closer to me when possible and you don’t mind, so that I can’t be really late if in fact I would be late at all. Or you might try the “we’re meeting at five” when we meet at 5:30 trick (something I find highly unreliable, as they are just as likely to show up on time once or twice and get the impression you are late, and so show up late to compensate). I mean, I just don’t know… people compromise on so many things that indirectly affect something like time already there’s more solutions for each situation than I could ever enumerate in a post.
Scotticher, “Um…sweetie, you DO understand that I am on YOUR side here?” Yes? I thought I did. What? I wanted to explain a possible motivation, and it made me grin because I have asked myself the same thing, “If I’m late all the time, why don’t I just compensate by adding an I’m-always-late time in my calculations?” I thought it was funny, s’all.
Tris
Tris, I love you man, as far as message boards go. Really I do. If it were just, “hey we all have things to do” then believe me there’s no issue here at all. But we’re talking about people who only tolerate ten minutes. Ten minutes. Now, no, I don’t expect everyone to agree with me that ten minutes is no big deal, I honestly don’t, SO becuase of that if your schedule is that tight then I don’t want to be a part of it. We’ll meet up some other time when time isn’t a big factor for both of us and we can just enjoy each other’s company without worrying about stuff like that.
Schedules get tight, I know it, I travel for work all the time, and I do service work on the road so I walk into situations constantly with limited time and unknown problems. But they aren’t always tight, and they definitely aren’t so with respect to ten minutes. I know people with two kids who can deal with me without batting an eyelash and you just don’t get much tighter of a schedule than that.
That’s right, and no one asked anyone to make any unreasonably, given the way we all know each other. You didn’t pull the “well, 8 or 8:30? Which is it?!?!” like Cheesesteak suggests, because it isn’t a matter of not being able to make 8 o’clock, it is a matter of not easily making X o’clock. When the only reason I have to show up on time is because the other person might have to wait a few minutes, my opinions on time do not grant it the same weight as other things. When the reason I have to show up on time is critical to events then that is another matter: if I want to partake in the event, of course I have to show up on time!
If I absolutely can’t get there earlier (say no one will be there) but I need to be there at a certain time, I meet someone else up before that at an uncertain time if I can. I know it sounds silly, if I can make one why can’t I make the other, I don’t know. I told Scotti one such example of what can happen, but there are others… I mean, I live my life that way, I don’t pay strict attention to everything that is going on the whole time. You know what I mean? In the interests of trying to better understand myself, maybe I should (but that issue has a long line to stand in, in that case! the mystery of erl runs deep).
Umm, let me get this straight eris. You want to have a vague time period in which to arrive, such as “between 7 and 7:30.” Well, if the other person wants to meet at 7:30, then couldn’t you just take it up on your own to get there between 7 and 7:30? Then you get your vague time, they get their exact time, and everyone is happy!
Unless, of course, you are lying about wanting a vague time expectation, and what you really want is to keep people waiting while avoiding waiting yourself at any cost.
And let me say something else, Tris, because you mentioned it first. Yes, I am early more than just every once in a great while. Yet I am still branded as a “chronically late person” because I am late more than just once in a great while, too. No one notices that, though, they expect it. I certainly don’t expect people to just toss their schedules out the window and do things that displease them, so we work around our conflict. I adjust myself so I can turn +/- 30 minutes into +/- 10, and they don’t give me shit about it later on. Maybe it still irks them, I don’t know, it doesn’t come up.
I like to throw my feces at people, even my friends. It’s just the way I am. It really bugs me when they get upset about it - can’t they just accept who I am? If they loved me they’d let me throw feces at them and not force me to conform to THEIR ideas about feces and the throwing thereof. I can’t believe some people think I’m wrong for doing this. It’s the way I am. I accept it. I have told people time and time again that I am liable to crap out a turd and hurl it at them at any given moment. Some people can’t deal with this, and too bad for them, for they’ll miss out on the joy of being my friend. I don’t know what gives people the right to see what I do as rude or wrong.
Wow, that’s a hell of an analogy. If you think lateness is comparable to throwing shit at people, good god, I pray we never, ever meet. What other sort of incredibly reasonable equivocations have you got hiding in there? Can I be compared to a baby killer, too? Come on, don’t hold anything back!
I may not be able to force YOU to believe that your behavior isn’t an imposition, but I’m confident that 9 out of 10 people do believe that your behavior is an imposition.
If you don’t believe me, ask.
But, hey, I don’t expect that to deter you on your campaign to turn tardiness into a virtue. You’ve sunk your teeth into this dubious crusade with all the zealotry of a pit bull. I have many faults but not knowing when to pack up a good argument and go home is not one of them. I’m not changing your mind. So instead of continuing to beat my head against the wall, I’ll just wish you the best of luck.