The habitual late person is refusing to ‘work with them’ in the first place.
A person who normally makes the effort to be on time doesn’t get this level of anger from being late on occasion. It is the person who is ALWAYS late, ALWAYS not ready, ALWAYS having people wait for them. Why should that person get ANY slack?
I think, for many people, these times are much more common than they are for you. The manner in which you conduct your social life seems to avoid these situations. Others do not necessarily have this option, or just do not use it, and the continual flaunting of the agreed to times is grating.
Granted, the time for coming over isn’t set in stone, but the time for dinner is, so if they were told that dinner will be at 2 and they come over early and hang out, that’s fine, provided the hosts want early guests while they are still preparing a dinner for X number of people. But they shouldn’t arrive later than 2pm and expect anyone to be still waiting to eat.
If I invite someone for dinner and they ask what time it’s going to be served. If I tell them 2pm and they don’t show up until 3? That’s wrong. If they didn’t want to conform to my “selfish and uncomprising” time table, then they shouldn’t have accepted the invitation in the first place. If you don’t agree with me, we’ll just have to agree to disagree and I’ll add “inviting you to dinner” to my list of things I won’t do with you :p.
First, to clarify: I never called you selfish. I may disagree with your point of view, but you’re entitled to it. If I disagree with it enough I might rethink doing certain things with you, but I wouldn’t end a friendship over it.
And if you’re so busy or find it so demeaning to say “let’s meet at 6” and actually show up within a reasonable time frame (which to me is no later than 10-15mins late without a phone call), then let’s see each other another time, or not at all, under those circumstances, at any rate.
It’s one thing if we’re making plans to hang out at home. But, I’m sorry, if I’m going to go out and go somewhere with the specific purpose of seeing you, then damnit, I expect to see you, not sit around on a park bench waiting until you feel you have time for me. I find that demeaning.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree and never do anything together. coughYour losscough
I’m in the show-the-fuck-up-on-time camp. If you have no intention of being somewhere at a given time then don’t say you will be. I can’t stand waiting for people and chronically late people drive me nuts. Just tell me when you’re going to be there and that’s when I’ll show up. Don’t fucking lie to me like I’m Montel Williams. what Eris is basically saying is that the other person always has a duty to show up before him and wait on his convenience, well fuck that in the ass with a mop handle. I think chronically late people just get off on making people wait. It makes them feel important. It’s an assholish, narcissistic trait.
They don’t have to be like me or adopt my pseudo-schedule at all. I never suggested such a thing. I hesitate to even use the word because I think it has negative connotations, but we compromise on such things. It would be the equivalent of you not telling me not to smoke and I won’t light up around you.
Let’s get it straight: I do not expect people to live like me. That is the most profound form of arrogance ever. I do expect people to realize I am possibly different than them in many ways and to try and reach mutual concessions that serve both parties involved.
Mauvaise, I didn’t mean to imply (and didn’t think I did) you called me anything, but that being called those things is why we are here discussing it in the first place.
Right. See how many different concessions are made all the time for meeting people? See how the more specific we make the example the more things must be taken into account besides time?
But let’s be clear, I don’t think people are being selfish by asking people to follow their way of life. I thought I said as much in the OP, but I may not have. I don’t think any of us are being selfish at all, I think many of us are missing what sort of factors account for different behavior and because of that attribute false causes to the whole affair and end up with hypocritical standards or begged questions.
Dinner is served at a time, no way around that. This is much like the airline example: if dinner serving time is “on time” then color me surprised. I show up before dinner is ready all the time. I can’t imagine walking in the door and sitting right down to eat… in fact, if I expected my guests to be like that I would feel a little rude myself; I’m not a soup kitchen. But I don’t think you’re rude or selfish at all. Please, I don’t know how many ways to say it.
I guess so. It is quite probable that time serves as a strong selective agent for me getting to know people in the first place so I never become even a little close to people who make a big deal of it. This conversation has certainly proved enlightening for me, anyway.
For someone who holds time as so important I would expect you to at least have a grasp of how it flows. Plans must be made before someone can ever be late. That is the time when concessions are made if they can be.
I often am slightly late for things, or squeek in juuuuuuust at the last second. The reason isn’t that I’m inconsiderate, it’s that I’m vaguely stupid. “It takes me 20 minutes to drive from here to there” so 20 minutes before, I get up, get my shoes on, find my keys, blah blah blah… then when I get there I have to park, etc…do you see the problem here? Oops. Yet I do it more often than I like to admit.
I also don’t like exact times, yet when there is one that HAS to be met, I am usually on time. Appointments, etc. If I’m meeting someone for lunch during their lunch hour, obviously I make extra effort and get there a few minutes early or whatever.
However, for a casual social thing? I don’t like exact times. If I’m going to visit a friend, it usually goes like this:
Hey, what about we get together tomorrow sometime? Ok… afternoon ok? Ok. Call me when you’re ready and I’ll come over. --or-- ok I’ll give you a call when I’m about to leave.
It works really well, no one is “late” or held to any strict times. Believe it or not, it works, and it’s much less stressful [keep in mind that most of my friends are the same way, and this is the way we all like it.]
You’d be right at home in Utah, eris where it seems the whole state works on Mormon Standard Time. That is, “Dinner at 7:00” really means “Try to be here around 7:30”.
Drives me batshit. If you agree on a stated time, then show up at that time!
Me: 7:00 good for you?
You: Sure, I’ll be there.
7:30 rolls around
Me: Dude, where were you? Ithought we’d meet at 7:00!
You: 7:00, 7:30, same diff.
It’s not the same difference. If you are tired of anal people getting mad at you for being late, then try to agree on a time that’s good for you. Or warn them ahead of time. Otherwise, you’re the asshole, not the one on time.
A couple of weeks ago, I decided I wanted to have a fairly nice sit-down dinner. (I had a recipe I wanted to try out, and it really required more than self and spouse to be worth doing.) So I invited some people over.
The timing negotiation went something like: “I’d like to be home by eight.” “Okay. So I’ll plan on having dinner ready sometime around . . . five?” “All right. We’ll head out sometime around four or four-thirty.” “Sure, that’ll work.”
If they’d been later than they were, I’d have taken more time getting stuff arranged and gotten my husband to cut the roast and that sort of thing. If they’d been earlier than they were, I’d have waved to them from the kitchen and stirred beets for a little bit longer. As it was, they came in and sat down in the living room, I said, “Just about done,” and we had dinner once they’d gotten comfortable and I’d found something to serve the noodles with.
Of course, these are the same people who hold a weekly gaming get-together which has on its notes, “If you’re expecting to get here much later than seven, drop us a line so we’ll know how to divide up the games.” They also host our D&D game, which is usually scheduled to start at sometime between one or two, show up sometime between noon and one.
There is no specific time that is good for me. Most of the point, really. That’s why I tried so hard to be in charge at McDonalds and made sure I now took a job that allowed flex hours. I tried niggling around the 9:30 time because, well, we serve people in Califonia, too, right? So if I work 11-7 I’m there during the busiest hours for everyone. Well, no dice. Still, my situation isn’t anything to complain about.
If there is any stress in my life, it doesn’t come from time, that much is certain.
I’ve had a friend since I was 14 who is almost always late (“almost” because we’ve had her get out of her house on time when we literally drag her out the door, still munching on breakfast). It’s incredibly irritating.
Freshman year I had to work on a biology project with her at her house. Obviously I didn’t drive then, so my mom drove me over at our decided time of 4:30. No one was home. (if you can’t tell, her entire family is like this). I waited for 15 minutes, my mom getting more annoyed because she had dinner to cook, until I gave up. I got a call at 5:45, she had just gotten home because her mom had taken everyone out at 4:15 to run errands, saying, “oh, we have enough time!” :rolleyes:
Another example: a group of friends goes to the Michigan Rennaissance Festival every opening weekend. We need to all meet by one person’s house by 9 am (we have other people to meet at the Festival, other things to do there, etc). What time does this girl show up? Almost 11:30! That’s not “casual”, that’s inexcuseable! She does this all the time (although I’m proud of her, because she has gotten better at it over the years).
It’s gotten to the point where if we need to meet at 8pm, every single person tells her to be there by 5pm. You shouldn’t have to do this. Showing up that late continually is rude. Everyone else can manage to meet by at least 8:30, why can’t you without us having to resort to lies about the meeting time?
Huh? An civil invitation doesn’t equal forcing you into anything. The “silly thing like time” just translates to when everybody else intends to get together. If you can’t or won’t, fine. Just expect everyone else to drum their fingers and mark time waiting for precious little you.
**
This is a draw-dropper. Nobody could write satire like this. “Society and humanity” ARE just other people, get it? Nothing spooky or mysterious about it. They’re the ordinary folks in your and my life who might, just might, qualify for basic consideration and respect. I cannot fathom the arrogant mindset that requires everyone else to dance upon an individual’s convenience.
Respecting other people really ain’t rocket science or require stifiling anyone’s sensitive innner child. If you can’t commit to being someplace when other people have arranged to gather, just say so already. Why the sturm und drang? If you’re a “maybe” or “whenever”, fine already. Call it. People will adjust, or you’ll lose out. Just don’t piss and moan because everybody else on the planet doesn’t leap to adjust their meaningless lives to your whims.
March to a different drummer and time clock? Rock on. Just don’t impose it on others and then blame them for arroganace. Time nazi’s indeed.
Actually, I don’t. America, for example, has a population around 275 million IIRC. That’s a society. Humanity is even larger than that.
I don’t hang out with that many people. Not even on accident.
Certainly no one like that here. Check back later though, I’ll try and dig one up for you.
You’d think so, wouldn’t you!
Nothing has ever been more effective in the history of mankind than the saying of something. [sup]†[/sup]
Are we even reading the same thread?
I don’t do either. Note the dichotomy you present still demands one live on some schedule. My schedule is almost non-existent.
Well, that settles it, at least. We are reading different threads. Check back Veb when you find this one.
†[sub]damn it, another doper said this to me once and I wish I could properly attribute it; I think it was yosemitebabe or techchick but I can’t quite remember… please, if you did, take credit! I still love it :**)[/sub]
If you don’t like the plan, don’t agree to it. These people aren’t asking for concessions, they aren’t suggesting that they won’t make it in time, they’re agreeing to the plan and just showing up late. They nod their heads and agree, fully expecting to do whatever they want when the time comes. Don’t expect me to volunteer a concession when I’m already happy with the plan I’ve suggested.
I also think the issue is more than just being unconcerned about time. While you may merely be uninterested in time, the actions of the habitually late don’t suggest that. A person who has ‘no sense of time’ would occasionally be early to an event, wouldn’t you think? Surprisingly, their lack of interest in time results in them always being late. Somehow it’s always “7:00, 7:30, same diff”, and not “7:00, 6:30, same diff”
I’m almost always late. If I’m on time, it’s by accident. If I arrive somewhere early, I’ll get bored, find something else to do & end up late anyway. I think it’s congenital. According to my mom I was born almost a month late (but that’s going to be another thread soon). It’s not just me. My whole family is always late. I’m actually the best about being on time. My brother is horrible about it and he married a women who is pretty much the same. I agree to meet them someplace, I just add at least a half hour to 45 minutes for them to show up. Sure, I’m going to show up 5-10 minutes late, but I know they’ll be even later.
I love my friends & close ones. But I’m always late. You know, I’m actually pretty loveable, at least according to those who do love me. But I’m chronically late. They all know it. I’m kinda embarrassed when they make jokes about it, but it is true. You like or love me, you add 15-30 minutes to my arrival time. After awhile I figure out your strategy, figure you’re padding the arrival time & factor that in & arrive late anyway. I don’t know why I do it! It’s not that I don’t love you or think my time is more valuable than your time.
If it’s something serious, I’ll be there on-time or early. If it’s an emergency, stay the fuck out of my way 'cause I’m going to be there early. Earlier than is legally possible.
I was in the Army. If I have to, I can be “Ret-To-Go” & out the door faster than most people can button a shirt.
But otherwise I’m late. Late, late, late. If you can’t handle that, don’t have me as a friend. We’ll both probably miss out on some truly valuable life experiences, but c’est la vie. There are some things about you that bug the shit out of me. My lateness bugs the shit out of you. Is it worth a lost friendship/love?
I tried to address this in my response to Tris’s post back on page one, and I think somewhere up above. Being compelled to meet at a certain time makes me act differently than I would otherwise. If you didn’t set a time but picked the middle of an agreed time span and monitored when I’d show up, yeah, I think you’d find something approaching a normal distribution. It’d be an interesting experiment, anyway.
For work, at least, when I am under my own power (right now my car was stolen and is now in the shop for repairs so I am getting a ride from someone else) I probably average around 8:30. Can we discount the days I’ve slept there because I was working until 3AM? Well, maybe not, those might counter the days I was commuting to work and missed the train… Hmm.
Anyway…
But when I am supposed to meet someone at a certain time, I try and plan out my time. For someone who doesn’t place that much emphasis on time, this is very often an impossible task. I can seemingly never account for everything that actually goes in to meeting someone. Dunno. When time is critical, like when we need to go to a movie or something, then I, as I said above, meet people somewhere else first so lateness, whether accidental or “deliberate” or deliberate, doesn’t ruin the affair.
The reason it didn’t enter my mind is because I was listing YOUR options. You can only control YOUR behavior. You can’t force other people to conform to your liberal time management approach or force them to believe that your behavior isn’t rude.
So you can either change your behavior or you can continue on your merry way not giving a damn if your behavior irritates and offends people.
And it DOES irritate and offend people, in case that subtlety was lost on you in the midst of your cutting and pasting.
if you are coming over to hang out sometime after dinner it is fine to show up whenever. If we are meeting on a street corner be there when you say you will.
It boils down to this:
if you make an agreement stick to it.
If you can’t/won’t/don’t want to then don’t make the agreement or propose a different one.
There are valued people in my life I will not meet out in the world, they can come to my place and we will leave from there when they show up. Other friends and I have an on the half hour rule, if they are not there at the appointed time we will shift it half an hour. That is enough time to go browse in a bookshop or grab a coffee or something. All these arrangements are reasonable and are agreed to by all parties in advance.
If we have no such agreements and you say you will be somewhere at 5 and do not show up until 5:30 you are breaking an agreement. Breaking agreements is the sucky bit, not your being late.
How? From what I understand, you work so that we say “Let’s meet for coffee.” Can I say “Let’s meet for coffee on Saturday” or does that constrain your free spirit too much? Can I specify afternoon? At what point am I imposing my outdated notions of chronophilia on you? So we have agreed that at some point we’ll meet for coffe.
So now what? Do I just hang out at the coffee shop all day until you wander in? Do I just pick a moment, go there, and if you happen to be there at the moment, fantastic, and if not, I leave and forget about it? Do I call the coffee shop every so often and ask if you’re there? How do I work with you on this?
And I keep reading people talking about how much less stressful it is when no time is set. Jesus, people, are you so tightly wound that someone suggesting we meet for dinner at 7:00 is going to pop a vein? If that’s causing you so much stress, how od you make it through your daily life?
Erislover you say that your schedule is non existant. That’s fine for you. Unfortunately my schedule is existant and if I have arranged to go to a movie with you, I may not be able to meet a couple of hours earlier and hang out because I may have many other things to do. So we arrange to meet at the theartre about 30-15mins before the movie starts, I expect you to be there at least in time to get tickets and go in. If you’re not then I’ll be going in by myself or, more likely, I’ll just leave and do something else. If this started being a habit for you then you’d find yourself getting fewer invitations. At some point you would no longer get any invitations. This is how you would fall out of my circle of friends.
See, if there are two people and for one, time is important, and for the other, time is not important, then it should be the latter who adjusts their lifestyle so they arrive on time, simply because the time is important to the other person.
If it is important to me that you wear blue clothes and you don’t care what colour clothes you wear, then you should wear blue clothes because it’s important to me and you essentially con’t care either way.
If I don’t like waiting and you don’t mind waiting then you should make the effort to be early.
You say that other people shouldn’t hold you to their rigid schedule. Actually we aren’t. You have as long as you like before the arranged time to be there. Just don’t be (too) late.
BTW I am not very good at being on time, like Opalcat I tend to underestimate how long it’ll take to do stuff (us cats have never been good with that kind of stuff). However, I am aware that I have this problem and I will make the effort to be early (which generally means I end up on time) when I know that it is important to the other person that I do so. What I don’t do, is arrogantly expect other people to just hang around waiting for me if I’m late.
How the hell are these friends of yours forcing you to adopt to their time schedules? If it doesn’t involve cattle prods or mind control I can’t see how they’re forcing you to do anything, given you are an adult with free-will who could decline their offers and hang out with other people instead of these “time nazis”.
Actually, now that I think about it, forcing you to show up on time would imply that you actually do show up on time, and this thread makes it seem like you don’t do that often. I’ve read all your responses, and I still can’t figure out how they’re assholes for expecting you to keep your word once you’ve given it.
Still, my situation isn’t anything to complain about.
Well, maybe not, those might counter the days I was commuting to work and missed the train… Hmm.