Seven Deadly Sins: Not So Deadly?

Great Debates
1

Well everyone knows the Seven Deadly Sins are the pinnacle of, well…deadliness. But perhaps not.

Let’s see.

Sloth: Laziness is a SIN? I stay in bed until one pm in the morning, and I’m sinning? Okay, maybe by sloth they meant “is lazy all the time,” but I don’t think it matters. It’s a lifestyle choice. If you wanna be a slacker and are prepared to live with the consquences of not working, then hey, fine by me.

Pride: That’s just the way you feel sometimes. Can you help it? What if you’ve got something to be proud of? Perhaps the nature of this sin is that if you’re all proud, then you’ll put your trust in yourself, and not in God. Personally I don’t see what’s so bad about a little self-trust.

Avarice: Greed is bad? Maybe if it drives you to looting and killing. But isn’t it fine to feel greed if you don’t act upon it? And again, isn’t this an emotion you can’t help? Like if your neighbor shows off his new RV, and perfect house, etc.- can you blame yourself for this sin?

Wrath: Another emotion. You’re supposed to blame yourself for feeling angry? Are we supposed to walk around, suppressing our feelings, stifling rage, and being generally unhealthy? I know the dictionary defines wrath as VENGEFUL (sp?) anger- but even so, can you help it if you feel revenge? If you’ve been so wronged, is this emotion your fault?

Gluttony: I don’t see the sin here. Yes, eating a lot might make you obese- unless you have great metabolism. Maybe food was scarce in Biblical days? I say if you wanna be fat, your problem- why should God brand you a sinner for wanting to eat?

Envy: How is it your fault if you feel envious once in awhile? Perhaps envy can stimulate you- lead you to ambition. If you’re unhappy with your lot and life, and are feeling jealous of someone else, like…Bill Gates, couldn’t it theoretically stimulate you to work really hard, invent your own computer system, and also be rich? Or is this a sin because materialism is so wrong?

Lust: Lust. Now if we didn’t feel this one, how would we procreate the species? Lust- sex- unless you’re sexually repressed, is necessary. And not sinful at all.

If I had to pick a really deadly sin off this list…I guess it would be avarice. Even so I know I’ve felt it once in awhile. Who hasn’t? The others just don’t seem grave enough for sin. So let’s debate the alleged deadliness of the sins. Perhaps they worked last millenium, but maybe we need to up the ante a little now…

2

The major issue with the Seven Deadly Sins is to what extent they’re performed. Everybody’s guilty of every one of them at some time, but it’s when you completely embrace the sin, and start living your life based on it, that it gets bad.

They’re okay, because they’re human. But if they become the driving force of your existence, it’s no good for anybody.

Just my thoughts.

3

At the risk of invoking Gaudere’s Law, can I just say that I love the phrase “one pm in the morning.” Does that mean you sleep round the clock?

Sloth is not just laziness. It’s laziness to excess, so that nothing gets done in the home, in the field, on the job, whatever. Not a good thing in anyone’s book, and something more than just the “slacker lifestyle.”

Again, excessive feelings of self-worth are the problems here. Particularly if one goes so far as John Lennon did and decides one is “bigger than God.”

[sub]note: IANAC[/sub]

Avarice is not just greed. It’s greed to the point that you do not and cannot share the proceeds of your work with others, so that the hungry get hungrier as the grain rots in your storehouses.

This one is much trickier for me to define, though there’s something to be said for not running around knocking together the heads of people who piss you off.

Ah, but true Gluttony is related to Avarice - you eat past the point of sufficiency, then keep eating. Even to the point (as the Romans did-IIRC) of vomiting up everything you’ve just eaten, then starting to eat again.

There’s a difference between Jealousy and Envy, my dear. Jealousy we get over. Envy leads Iago to destroy both Cassio and Othello.

There’s a tremendous difference between “I desire this Tar-Tar woman…she makes my blood boil” and “I want to live the rest of my life with this person because they fill my emotional needs.” Lust is all about taking what you want, when you want it, and can apply to far more than just the sexual urge. After all, we speak of those who have a “lust for power,” and where they may be speaking of a sexual response to the gaining of power, they are also talking about an excessive (look, there’s that word again) desire for same.

4

::: decides that dogsbody is one of the finest moral theologians he has ever read :::

::: ducks and runs from her probable response to that comment :::

5

Wh-Poly, don’t run! I’m… :o I’m blushing.

Oh, and extra bonus points for the person(s) who get the textual references in my post above…(one obvious, one not-so).

:wink:

6

Okay dogsbody, you wanna-be clergy member, you. (Er, sorry. That sounded wrong.)

I guess excessiveness could be bad. Really bad. But what if a seemingly bad sin causes you to do something good out of it. I.e., lust for power…you become a really good…politician. (Some people might call you a dictator, but meh…hell is other people.) If a sin motivates you to do something good, is it still so deadly?

And Jester, I recognize that you too are supreme in your knowledge of Biblical Stuff.

NB- That 1 pm in the morning remark I made…what I meant is, I wake up at one pm (afternoon), but since I’m waking up it feels like morning. That’s why I said it so strangely.

[sub]I wonder if he’s buying that…:slight_smile:

7

Sloth is a spiritual laziness as well. Also called acedia, it is form of depression due to lax ascetical practice, decreasing vigilance, carelessness of heart. It may be part and parcel to a failure to reflect upon divine charity and divine goodness. It can mean a refusal the joy that comes from God and an abhorrance of divine goodness.

Pride is the opposite of humility. Pride is the root of many sins, including the hatred of God.

Avarice is just another word for greed. It results in the desire to amass worldly goods and their attendant power. It can also result in the worship of false idols, such as money.

Wrath is a failure to turn the other cheek and love your enemies. The same as anger, it is a desire for revenge.

Gluttony is taking from God’s bounty more than would be sufficient for you or more than what he has fairly offered.

Envy and jealousy are basically the same thing. Envy caused the fall of man as he wanted to be like God and resulted in death entering the world.

Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man.

Envy refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself. Envy represents a form of sadness and therefore a refusal of charity; the baptized person should struggle against it by exercising good will. Envy often comes from pride, a lack of humility

LUST is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. It can lead to domination in your relationships.

8

Ah, but my dear Zoggie, if you’re a…dictator…then you’re probably not doing “good.” Please note that I said “probably” - according to my roommate, who is a professor at a University, one student considers all professors “Egotistical Dictators with PhDs.” :wink:

If you have a lust for power, then you are going to put yourself in a position where you will do anything to keep anyone from threatening your power. Ergo, not good and therefor “sinful”, no matter how benificient you try to be to your subjects in general. Someone is going to end up threatening your power, and, :whsst: off with their heads, right?

The problems with the sins are that they don’t encourage you to engage in “good” behaviours - they do the opposite. If wrathful, you can’t see the good in others, or that they may have something useful to teach you. If lustful, you can’t stand for anyone else to have the object of your lust. If slothful, you can’t stand to lift a finger to help anyone - even yourself. If envious, you must somehow damage the person/thing/idea that you are envious of. If avaricious, you can’t stand for anyone to have more than you, and will do anything to prevent that (avariciousness and miserlyness go hand-in-hand for me: YMMV). If gluttonous…well, I have a hard time defining gluttony, except to say that it seems to me that gluttony and avarice are really only subsets of lust - avarice is a lust for money/property and gluttony a lust for food.

Anyway, I’m sure you can see where these are not going to lead to good, and therefore not “sinful” behaviours.

Strangely, this list of “deadlies” is one of the places where I agree with Christian/Catholic doctrine. They can’t lead to good, and seem to me to inevitably lead to destructiveness.

And the next person that suggests I’m studying for the clergy is going to have leeks thrown at them. :wink:

9

Ah, but my dear Zoggie, if you’re a…dictator…then you’re probably not doing “good.” Please note that I said “probably” - according to my roommate, who is a professor at a University, one student considers all professors “Egotistical Dictators with PhDs.” :wink:

If you have a lust for power, then you are going to put yourself in a position where you will do anything to keep anyone from threatening your power. Ergo, not good and therefor “sinful”, no matter how benificient you try to be to your subjects in general. Someone is going to end up threatening your power, and, :whsst: off with their heads, right?

The problems with the sins are that they don’t encourage you to engage in “good” behaviours - they do the opposite. If wrathful, you can’t see the good in others, or that they may have something useful to teach you. If lustful, you can’t stand for anyone else to have the object of your lust. If slothful, you can’t stand to lift a finger to help anyone - even yourself. If envious, you must somehow damage the person/thing/idea that you are envious of. If avaricious, you can’t stand for anyone to have more than you, and will do anything to prevent that (avariciousness and miserlyness go hand-in-hand for me: YMMV). If gluttonous…well, I have a hard time defining gluttony, except to say that it seems to me that gluttony and avarice are really only subsets of lust - avarice is a lust for money/property and gluttony a lust for food.

Anyway, I’m sure you can see where these are not going to lead to good, and therefore not “sinful” behaviours.

Strangely, this list of “deadlies” is one of the places where I agree with Christian/Catholic doctrine. They can’t lead to good, and seem to me to inevitably lead to destructiveness.

And the next person that suggests I’m studying for the clergy is going to have leeks thrown at them. :wink:

[sub]btw, I’m a she. Please check my .sig for further details[/sub]

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by dogsbody *
**

Lennon wasn’t saying that the Beatles were “igger than Jesus” (not God) pridefully. He was very dubious of the incredible influence they had and, while ambivalent toward Christianity, kind of overwhelmed by the attention.

11

The one comment not yet made that is worth bringing up is that the Seven Deadly Sins are not particular acts but states of mind, and extremes of those states of mind. And in proper degree, according to Christian theology, no one of them is a sin at all, much less deadly. (Maybe Joel, Tom~, or one of the other scholarly Catholics around here can post the thing that parallels the SDS to the Seven Virtues.

For example, self-acceptance and a feeling of self-worth is good. You cannot be a decent person towards others while loathing yourself. (This is not suggesting condoning one’s own sins, but simply the practice of accepting oneself as who one is, a worthwhile human being. I’ve had a lot to say on that in another thread recently.) But the extreme of this state is pride.

By Judaeo-Christian standards, God created man with a sex drive to be fruitful and multiply, and (it is generally held) to celebrate physically the marital love between a couple. The Song of Solomon makes clear the goodness of sex in its proper place, with a vengeance. But, as dogsbody noted, gratification of one’s own sex drive at the expense of others rather than for mutual pleasure and hopefully procreation (assuming there are not reasons to avoid the latter) becomes lust – as different from healthy sex as robbing a bank is from negotiating a loan. And the same process can be applied to all seven.

12

What, the one from the Duke playing Ghenghis Khan in “The COnqueror”? :cool:
That movie was a deadly sin against good taste…

Anyway, as has been pointed out, calling them the 7 “deadly” sins does not mean that every manifestation thereof is what the RCC calls a “mortal” sin (a grave matter, consciously and deliberately committed, etc., etc. IOW a ticket to the eternal Too-Hot Tub), but that they represent a state of mind that, unchecked, can lead you there.

Part of the problem, it seems, is that in the English language we have suffered a bit of meaning-drift with some of these words. E.g. in the 1600’s when they translated the Bible, the Voice of God was not rendered as “This is my Son, of whom I’m proud”, but “This is my Son, in whom I am pleased” or something to that effect.

jrd

13

JRD, you scare me. :cool:

Ptahlis, I’m sorry. I knew he’d said “Jesus,” I had not heard the quote put in any kind of context, and it was the only thing I could think of at the time that expressed clearly what I had to say. I would never intentionally disrespect any member of the Beatles, trust me. :slight_smile:

Poly, I must not be that good a moral thealogian ;), since I didn’t manage to mention the “state of mind” aspect of the seven (or five) deadlies.

I don’t think there’s been enough of a linguistic shift to cause trouble with the meaning of “deadly,” though. One of the things I firmly believe in is “An it harm none, do as thou wilt.” (excuse me, my faith is showing.) However, the problem with the mindset of a person who is indulging/engaging in one of the seven deadlies is that whichever “sin” it is will inevitably (IMNSHO) lead to harm not only for others, but for the person themself.

14

From a Buddhist perspective all the ‘sins’ are mind states that cause suffering. It is not some far off ‘heaven’ that is denied one who indulges in those ‘sins’ but instead a distancing from happiness and a residing in suffering (dukkha).

15

That’s okay. We all know you Neopagans feel compelled to witness to your beliefs. And as long as it’s done in good taste, nobody’s going to hold it against you. :stuck_out_tongue:

16

Sloth: “I don’t f****g feel like getting off my ass and doing what HAS to be done;” “I don’t f*****g feel like making child-support payments.” Sloth includes the Kitty-Genovese’s-Neighbors syndrome: someone’s crying for help, I will not get involved, it’s too much bother.

**

Pride: “I am greater and better than anyone else… no, wait, make that I am the only one who’s any good, everyone else just sucks;” “This is beneath me;” “You should be the one glad that I (work/sleep/talk) with you.”

**

Wanting wealth = not bad
Wanting wealth more than anything else, at any cost = Avarice
Hoarding wealth without putting it to productive use = Avarice
**

You’re supposed to work it out. Go to the shrink.
Not Wrath: “Man, he makes me so angry. Oh, well, there are a-holes everywhere, he’ll get his some day, no need to work myself up over it…”
Wrath: “Man, he makes me so angry! And there ain’t nothing I can do about it! Wish I could shoot him! Why should it be illegal to shoot him? Why should those people get away with it? Mumble, grumble, mutter…”

**

Gluttony: “Let’s go throw up so we can keep gorging;”
**

Your example is Not Envy

Envy: “He’s got the promotion I wanted! Wouldn’t it be great if someone planted some kid p0rn in his computer so his life gets ruined?”
Envy: “Man, look, dude’s got a Jag… whay you say we whap him upside the head and take the keys?”
**

Meaning of the words in this context is Lechery
The entire list of the Seven has “Pride” as its cornerstone. Because if I’m better than anyone else – or everyone else are my inferiors – then of course I should be able to use them and their stuff for my pleasure, of course it’s beneath me to lift a finger on anyone’s behalf, of course I’m the one who should get all the goodies, of course anyone else who gets goodies should be brought down, of course I’m the one who deals justice and punishment…

17

JDR

Interesting. So if Hubris (as a more refined term for Pride) is the one SDS that IYHO is the “worst” as the cornerstone for the other six, and it’s MHO that Lust (for anything) can equally define them…maybe we can carve the list down to two deadliest sins?

Although I’m still not sure how Sloth quite fits into the Hubris/Lust continuum. Sure, I can see it in the Genovese example you’ve given above (which is a much finer example than I could come up with) as believing that you’re “too good” to help…Maybe it should be three deadlies.

Or not. What’s interesting is that, much like “The Golden Rule” this list appears to carry across at least four “differing” faith systems. (a note: I don’t really consider Protestantism and Catholicism to be two separate faith systems. However, they are different enough in this instance for me to feel comfortable referring to them that way.)

That’s Agnostic neo-shamanic neo-pagan, and don’t you forget it.

Heathen. :wink:

Hey, Poly, can I add the “theologian” thing to my sig?

18

How about “world’s leading agnostic neo-shamanic neo-pagan moral theologian”? :wink:

I think nobody is likely to argue the point!

19

I don’t see anything wrong with eating so much you’ll vomit and go back for more. Sure you may have bulimia, but is it really a sin? Or is it just that God cares about our well-being?

Anyway, is it just me or is the big G- that being God- a trifle insecure, as Homer S. once said? A lot of these sins, as jm said, are about people not worshipping God- i.e., if you have pride, you’ll turn from God, won’t have humility for him, etc. Or again, is it that God is being paternalistic and setting out a list of goals for people’s well being?

20

What they called PRIDE, we would call arrogance, or conceit.
In other words-ego masturbation to the point of thinking one is better than everyone else. It’s really about semantics.
If lust for power gets someone to do good for others…is that the old the ends justify the means? There’s something a little bit Machiavellian there…
It’s all about the idea of being selfish, and not caring about others, and being so consumed by what you want that neither you, nor the people around you are happy. Think about it-excess of any of the seven isn’t going to make one very happy, because you’re never satisfied. There IS something to be said about contentment and moderation.