Sex before Marriage.

Cite? We must be a really, really unhappy society, then. My daughter has just gotten married to her boyfriend of many years. (She was the one holding back.) Any increased happiness is from the fact that he got into law school and she has a very good fellowship.

Sex before marriage is not the same as having many partners. I never did, because I’m naturally monogamous (that’s my story and I’m sticking to it) but our relationship did not suffer at all for not waiting, and after 30 years we would know.

Nonsense. If you don’t like rafting, getting out of doing it again doesn’t involve lawyers and alimony. Pre-marriage counseling is probably a good thing, though if we had done it we’d probably get told we were crazy. it is damn important to know you’ve got sexual and financial compatibility before tying the knot. Along the line of the discussion vs doing debate above, I’d probably want the credit card statements and bank records of both partners to be open before marriage. It’s easy to say one is thrifty, but a zero balance is good evidence.
We didn’t do it, but neither of us had any money and we got married before credit card debt was standard.

I don’t think anyone here is saying that–at any rate, I’m not (although I do question why you’re not married, but that’s none of my beeswax). What I’m saying, and I think a lot of people here agree, is that sex shouldn’t come into a relationship too early. It’s overall a rather small part of a relationship, but a very intimate experience, and thus something that should be left until other parts of your bond have grown so that you’re not focusing too much on the physical over the emotional. Because in the end, it’s the emotional that defines a relationship.

Can you prodice any kind of a cite that having sex “too early” does a relationship any harm? I don’t buy that for a second.

One partner not giving it up – THAT"S what 's going to end a young relationship. It was definitely a deal breaker for me. Saving it for marriage? See ya later.

Of course it is. It would be for me too.

But the people I know – and as I said in a previous message, they are in my family, so I know them very well – that did wait to get married before having sex also do not have nine year relationships without getting married. In all these cases they were married within six months of having met.

It’s just a different kind of society than the one you and I live in. They don’t believe in sex before marriage, but neither do they believe in long engagements. A month or two to see if you have basic compatability – including scrutiny by both families – and you’re engaged. And before you ask – divorce is very rare.

Ed

Divorce is also culturally discouraged. Just because people stay married doesn’t mean they’re happy.

Anyway, my main point is that pre-marital chastity doesn’t add anything, not that it necessarily dooms a marriage to failure. It’s ridiculous to suggest that not boinking before the wedding is going to make the marriage any stronger. it’s just superstitious nonsense.

No, I don’t mind. I’d be more likely to ask why we should get married - neither of us is religious, and we’re not having kids, which, AFAICT, are the main reasons most people give for getting married in the first place. We’re obviously in a committed relationship - why the hell do we need a slip of paper to legitimize it to Christians (or whoever it is that asks us why we aren’t married)? I mean, is a couple who gets married and divorced within 5 years more “committed” than we are? I don’t get why people make it the default arrangement for a “real” relationship.

In some states, not necessarily California, it makes life much easier, in terms of visitation and stuff. It’s also a good excuse for a party.

Isn’t the most important thing being on the same page, much more than when and how often? That goes for money also. I know some people who are happily married whose budgets would drive me up the wall. Lots of Dopers think that having one joint account is crazy, for us it would indicate a horrible lack of trust.
But I do object to those who say their way is the only way - and those people are usually religious.

Well, for our 10-year anniversary (next year), we’re thinking of throwing a “We’re Still Not Getting Married” ceremony and registering for gifts and shit - why shouldn’t we celebrate real commitment rather than just romantic notions of commitment?

For a minute there, I thought we’d figured out why Rush Limbaugh has been married so many times.

I think we can agree here.

Ed

Personally? It’s far, far too late for me to decide to wait until marriage to have sex. Though I regret some of the choices I made so far as partners, I’ve never regretted having sex as a single woman.

And, I never would have questioned it until last year, when I took a teaching job at an Orthodox Jewish private school. There, it was quite clear that there was no sexual activity until marriage. Period. End of story. It worked for them. Over all the people I saw were happy and secure in their relationships.

More than that, removing sex from the everyday currency of social intercourse was something of a relief. Of course, I did get to go home at the end of the school day. I wasn’t steeping in it like some of my coworkers. When sex is something that only happens between wife and husband, and there’s no question of ever marrying a person of that culture and religion, then there’s no worry about whether he thinks your pretty, how you should dress, how you should talk, what subjects you can discuss.

Before I started working there, I would have named myself as one of the last people to change who I am in order to attract romantic or sexual interest. Yet, while I was part of that world, I came to appreciate how much more relaxed and meaningful my time was when I wasn’t constantly gauging men’s reaction to me, and my reaction to them.

I did a lot of thinking on the topic. There are many aspects of Orthodox Judaism that I found appealing - the focus on learning and intellect, the over-arching guide of the Torah to be a good person and live a good life, how much stress was placed on kindness, the meaning every day and every act had. There was also a whole lot that I couldn’t stand - having to cover myself from neck to wrist to ankle, married women covering their hair, no women being allowed to perform before men, and many other aspects.

For them, the idea of chastity until marriage worked. Sex was something very special between husband and wife. It was private. It was treasured. Information about sex was available, and there was actually a great deal of guidance from the rabbis, the Torah, the Talmud, and the other great writings. It just wasn’t something that was casually thrown out or referenced, any more than they casually threw out the name of G-d.

But, I don’t think it would work for the larger culture. There were too many strictures on behavior. Too few allowances for differences of orientation, gender, and taste. Too many imbalances between male privilege and female responsibility.

In order to pull off a full cultural value of chastity until marriage, you’d need:

  • a homogeneous society where everyone shares the same values and references.
  • general separation of male and female, except for family and courting. (At the school where I taught, the children were separated by gender starting in first grade.)
  • emphasis on marriage as the “natural” and expected state for adults.
  • guidance from parents and family on choosing a spouse at an early age.
  • it’s expected of both men and women.

I’m glad I’ve had premarital sex with my wives. There have been other women I was involved with, that I had feelings for, who would have made disastrous wives for purely sexual reasons had I married them, and there was no way of me knowing until I had sex with them. Yes, frank and honest discussion of sexual habits and desires could have helped, but usually the people who are going to be problems aren’t frank or honest.

Now, see, the way I see it, marriage isn’t a commitment. Sex is a commitment; marriage is just a recognition of a commitment. Sex is a really big deal. And if you’re willing to make such a huge commitment with someone as having sex with them, why shouldn’t you also get the insignificant little piece of paper to let everyone else know you’re committed?

And I really don’t get the argument behind “physical sexual compatability”. Those parts are flexible: Tab A is going to fit into slot B. Now, whether two people want to make each other happy, and are willing to listen to each other, and enjoy each other’s company, those are things you can’t always count on, but those are also all things you can find out without having sex.

I consider myself a Deist, and although I’m not especially Christian, I do oppose sex outside of marriage. While I certainly don’t think anyone’s going to go to hell for having sex with his girlfriend, I do think it is morally wrong, and I would rather have a society where it were not commonplace and accepted. However, I definitely would not have the state pass laws against it, either.

That’s just my view on the matter.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I do. My own parents are an atheist and a deist, and they believe very firmly in total abstinence.

Yah, I don’t really understand it either.

Why do you think it is morally wrong. It sounds like you don’t really consider it an offense against god. Who does it hurt?

I can’t understand the thinking that sex is important to marriage, much less the thinking that the quality of the sex could somehow make or break a marriage. By my thinking, sex has almost nothing to do with marriage, except that it produces kids, which marriage does relate to (for clearly legal reasons, if nothing else). Which certainly has nothing to do with the ‘quality’ of sex, nor does it imply that ‘I screw’ needs to come before ‘I do’.

Myself, I adhere to a pure ‘no impregnation’ policy - if there’s any chance of impregnation, then the activity is a no-go. In my (unsuprisingly) limited sexual encounters, my preferred aproach has been to require that at least one of us has a pair of pants on at all time - usually me, since it’s my buzzkilling idea. This still does leave a fairly wide selection of options for casual entertainment, though.

(In case anybody wonders, I don’t want to impregnate anybody because for males child support is a trap that I DO NOT want to get caught in - that simple. This is not a moral argument, it’s a pragmatic one.)

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would certainly consider marriage a commitment. It’s certainly a recognition of what is hopefully a commitment already there, but it can add to that certain societal and legal bonds which themselves must be broken should you end up splitting up.

As for the other part; while i’d certainly say sex was a big deal, I wouldn’t consider it as big a deal as marriage.

Well, on an entirely physical level, Tab A very well might not fit into slot B, but that’s a simplification. The problem with talking things out is that they aren’t the same as actually doing it. It may be the one partner enjoys certain acts that the other partner isn’t willing to perform; for whatever reason, it’s impossible to say without knowing first that whatever problems come up, it doesn’t matter enough for a comprimise to be possible when neither of the couple knows what the situation might be. Very likely there will be problems with listening and communication, and not just in terms of sex, which is why generally we tend to wait we know a pretty significant amount about the other person before such a bond is formed. The commitment that marriage recognises isn’t born overnight. It just seems to me that not at all “testing” that particular element of married life is like not talking about politics, or religion, or suchlike areas which could cause friction.

OTOH, Why should you? Why doesn’t my 9 years of living together show my commitment? And why does my relationship require society’s approval in the first place?

It’s more complicated than tab A fitting into slot B - if you’ve never been with somebody who you weren’t sexually compatible with, I’m happy for you. But some people just can’t seem to get it together in bed for whatever reason - rhythm’s off, wildly different libidos, or whatever. It’s not going to ruin a marriage, but it definitely makes it that much more difficult.