Sexual Identity and the "I don't like labels" Phenomenon

Great Debates
21

This is well put, and I can’t really argue with any of it. Growing up with a gay identity (and placing great importance on that identity and the community associated with it), I was very keenly aware of sexual categories and how everyone was placed within them. So to hear that these categories aren’t useful or important to some people is a bit shocking, and now I wonder how “non-labelers” view the LGBTQ community – is it also not useful or important (in a personal sense)? (Sorry for labeling you all “non-labelers”.)

[QUOTE=Maeglin]
He was 26 and lived in New York City. There is perhaps no time or place on earth where it has been so easy to be a young gay man. Such a post-label posture seems awfully ungrateful to the legions of gay men who did have to fight the difficult fights.
[/quote]

I understand this sentiment. My initial gut reaction to “I don’t like labels” is "What’s wrong with being called ‘gay’? Or ‘lesbian’? Why don’t you want to associated with these names I find so important?

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
For some people, it changes over time. Kinsey himself (he of the scale) claimed his scale to be only descriptive of a certain time for which the responder was answering, not a lifetime “once and done” label.

I’m willing to detail my preferences. You tell me what I am:
[/quote]

Thanks for the post – your life is so much more interesting than mine.

My response (to you, and to any person) is this: I don’t care what you call yourself. I don’t care if choose to reveal your identity or keep it private. I don’t even care if your identity accurately reflects your sexual behavior or orientation – because it’s your identity. What I do care about is just having a sexual identity. Is having one important to you? Was it ever? Do you associate yourself with the LGBTQ community?

22

You are no maverick. When it comes to gender identity issues, you remain proudly, outspokenly ignorant, despite many genuine attempts to explain what you claim sincerely to not understand. I guess you think you’re being fresh and irreverent or something, but it’s just tired, sad and useless. Why are you even here? :frowning:

23

Because I can and want to. Got a problem? Pit me.

24

It appears you forgot to mention the most salient part of my argument: a tranwoman who is still only attracted to MEN. IOW, a man, who through hormone use, grew breast but still likes MEN & his original equipment/genitals – minus the hormones, how is HE different from a gay guy?

Confusing much?

25

:rolleyes:

I made an apple pie but instead of apples, I used passionfruit. Except for the passionfruit, how is that not an apple pie?

26

A transwoman who’s attracted to men is different from a gay guy because gay guys don’t identify as women.

I remain confused as to why you brought this topic up in this thread, but I am pretty clear on the distinction between “gay” and “transgender”. It’s really not that complicated.

27

Makes two of us – confused that is. Why a guy with male organs who likes males is “transgender” is beyond me.

Cheers.

28

I suspect for similar reasons as dark skinned folks who are either not American or whose ancestors are not from Africa roll their eyes at people who call them African American.

Labels are arbitrary, and frankly, while I can see you being bothered by someone preaching that there should be no labels for anyone ever, it’s ridiculous that you should feel threatened by people who choose not to label themselves.

I see varying types (see what I did there) of non labelers anyway. Yes, there are a few phoney baloney non labelers who do it to be trendy or whatever, but they are few and far between. Then there are the ones whose behavior and/or desires has changed over time or in different contexts. Then there are those who just don’t think of gender as any more consequential than hair or eye color. I’m sure there are others.

Queer and other sexual identities have been useful as a historical counterpoint to heterosexism, but I think once society becomes predominantly non phobic, clinging strongly to a particular sexual identity will no longer be seen as needed or very useful. People will still have temporary or long lasting preferences, but won’t see them as an integral concrete fixture of their identity.

29

You don’t really understand what it means to be transgender, do you? What do you think makes anyone transgender?

30

Sometimes men love women
Sometimes men love men,
And then there are bisexuals
Though some just say they’re kidding themselves.
La lalala lalalalala la
La la lalala lala la la

– Phoebe Cates

31

Phoebe Buffay

32

But I think pussies are icky. Now, I mean. I haven’t always. So how can I be bi if I have no sexual or romantic attraction to women?

“I have many friends…” sorry, I hate that phrase, but it’s true. I do have many friends in the LGBTQ community, and I go to their potlucks and I join some of their fundraisers and campaigns and take their classes and am quite comfortable…but feel like an outsider. I feel a bit like an archeologist amongst the natives, learning, always learning, but without much to teach. Individually, these people are my friends. As a group, they are Not Me.

Because, total honesty here: I don’t get it. I don’t understand why the gender of the person you love (or recreate) with has become a defining characteristic that requires public proclamation. It’s truly just as strange to me as if people were rabidly curious about what style underwear I wear, and felt I was betraying myself and my fellow brief-wearers if I wasn’t public about wearing briefs, and tried to restrict my rights as a human because I wear briefs instead of thongs. It’s not that I’m ashamed of wearing briefs, I just don’t see why it matters to anyone unless they’re providing my underwear.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t be “out”, I’m saying I’m not sure how we got here or why it’s important. To anyone. I don’t understand why we *need *to fight for rights that should just be…rights. That shouldn’t be. But it is, and since it is, I’m fighting, too. I don’t understand why people get beat up because of the gender of people they love, but they do, and as long as they do, I’m going to try to help stop that, and help repair the damage when it happens anyway. I don’t understand why it’s important to people that the general public know their sexual identity, but is obviously important, and if it’s important to people I love, I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with them and support them in being heard and represented.

But no, I don’t “get it”, because:

No, I guess it’s not, except that I’m curious why I don’t fit in the current labeling system. It’s only ever been important to me when I’m pressed from outside to give a label, and when, in my late 20’s, I internalized that external pressure to have a label. It bothers me when I’m asked to answer a poll, and I don’t know whether to check the “straight” or “bi” box. I want to get it right. I don’t like being wrong. But I’m starting to accept that the problem lies not with me, but with the lack of an appropriate box to check.

I guess I’ll have to be content with being Other. :slight_smile:

33

I can’t be wasting my good pick up lines on lesbians. My success rate is low enough as is.

Just sayin.

34

So do all straight guys; we just don’t let that stop us.

35

That would explain why your accuracy is so poor.

36

I can understand this mentality and it applies to a lot of different areas, not just sexuality. The thing is, labels tend to carry baggage with them. Imagine that you’ve never met someone, if they’re described as gay or bi, that’s going to have some impact on how you imagine that person my look and act. In reality, all it “should” mean is who they’re sexually attracted to and, unless you’re planning to meet that person for that sort of reason, it shouldn’t matter at all, yet we still often learn something about someone’s personality who is described as gay. I’m straight, but there’s no assumptions about personality or appearance that go along with that. The only time I could imagine even imagine someone I’ve never met being described as straight would be if some other aspect of their personality might tend to lead someone to believe otherwise, like maybe their career choice.

And so, this is where dissatisfaction with these sorts of labels come in. What if a man is gay, but otherwise doesn’t share any of those characteristics that go with that label? If someone were to meet him, they very well might surprise most people when they learned that. I could understand someone like that not liking that label, even if they’ve always been strictly gay in their sexual preference. And it gets further confused when we consider the fact that there are quite a few people who don’t fit neatly into the strict definition of that label.

But really, the whole “I don’t like labels” thing, to me, is more just a rejection of the fact that we tend to have a way of compiling who a person is to a few broadbrush descriptions, often things like race, sexuality, religion, age or other group identifiers (emo, goth, hipster, metalhead, punk, etc.). I would think that one wouldn’t have much issue with a label if those stereotypes pretty accurately describe oneself, but probably would if those stereotypes don’t.

37

A hundred years ago, the label “lesbian” didn’t exist, except as an adjective describing things from the isle of Lesbos. Some women at the time felt that there wasn’t an adequate label to describe how they felt, and they started constructing the concept of a lesbian identity, and here we are today.

Except, it turns out that there are still some people who feel that the conventional set of labels currently available are insufficient to describe themselves, and are trying to create identities that they feel suit them. These identities may or may not ever gain as much cultural traction as “lesbian” has, but I don’t think that necessarily makes them invalid - no more so than a woman in 1910 eschewing the term “sexual invert” in favor of the trendy new “lesbian” identity.

There’s always someone who’s willing to take offense at anything, but in my experience, there’s a lot of transpeople who appreciate the term as a signal that they won’t be rejected just for being trans. Also, it indicates an attraction to people who are genderqueer, androgynous, or otherwise challenging gender norms.

38

This belongs in the Pit, not Great Debates.

This is becoming a hijack of the thread. Drop it.

39

I’m rather ambivalent about my own sexual identity. I tend to refer to myself with whichever label I think will be easiest for my audience to understand. If I’m debating SSM, I might refer to myself as gay, just to indicate a personal stake in the discussion. If I’m talking to a straight guy and the topic comes up, I’ll probably refer to myself as bisexual, under the assumption that he won’t understand any further categorization. If I’m talking to someone whose gay, I tend to identify as queer, which is nicely non specific. If I’m filling out a dating profile site, I’ll explain how I dislike conventional sexual identities due to their implicit acceptance of the binary gender paradigm, because if someone’s going to consider dating me, it’s only fair to warn them about the level of insufferable bullshit they’ll have to put up with.

As for associating with the LGBLT community, I identify with them politically, but my social circle is largely made up of straight dudes.

40

I hate labels, as I seem to get stuck with “midde-aged, educated, married, straight, white, middle-class, professional male.” You wouldn’t believe the assumptions and pigeon-holing which these carry.