I understand you and agree with you completely that “it doesn’t matter” and “I don’t care” and “it’s none of my business.” I have a feeling, though, that some of the *responders * to the thread are cherry-picking your argument that sexuality is not necessarily innate nor necessarily immutable, and running in a very different direction with that… and it is those people I am trying to head off at the pass.
No, I suppose not.
Yes, I can.
Because it doesn’t seem to work like that, and I wouldn’t expect it to - we’re complex, lumbering machines that take time to turn around.
If we were able to instantly switch anything about ourselves, I think that could be destructive.
You’ll get no disagreement from me on this.
I think the problem in this thread is the seemingly widespread notion that it must always be exclusively one thing or the other - a pure choice OR an immutable destiny.
Dunno - my impression with the whole ‘ex-gay’ thing is that the stakes are forced incredibly high and the subject is hastily coerced into saying it’s what he wants, when really, he has probably reached no such decision of his own will.
That’s what I meant - I meant to imply that I wanted to discuss that argument, but did not want to imply it was yours.
I just don’t think the cultural and social arena is conducive to change happening - the whole thing is too polarised (my cite is this thread), the stakes are too high, the stigma too exaggerated.
Even in cases like the ‘ex-gay’ movement, where change is the supposed goal - the method and motive is just too broken.
But I certainly do not think that things like our sexual orientation wait on our conscious choice before developing (and if it seems I’ve been arguing that, I apologise).
Fair enough, it was the first thing that came to mind. Well, the second, after excrement, but I found that analogy stretching it. We men aren’t that unattractive.
I’ve been looking up some studies on the subject (bit of a busman’s holiday for me since I’m a librarian 
) and there is some evidence that some people can to some extent change their sexual preferences. The following isn’t a direct response to you, Mangetout, I’m just taking this as an opportunity to share with the group.
There was a controversial 2003 study by Robert L. Spitzer* that involved interviewing people who self-identified as successful conversion cases. Spitzer included only those who reported having sustained some change in their orientation for at least five years. Many of the participants did report dramatically reduced levels of same-sex attraction since undergoing some form of therapy to change their sexuality, and all but one of the participants had completely given up homosexual sex. When asked if they were ever “bothered by unwanted homosexual feelings”, 26% of the men and 49% of the women chose “Not at all”.
Of course, this means that 74% of the men and 51% of the women were at least sometimes still “bothered by unwanted homosexual feelings”. 45% of the men and 18% of the women also reported that at least 20% of the time they still fantasized about members of the same sex while masturbating. Taking this study at face value (it has been criticized for methodological problems) there do certainly seem to be people who have made voluntary changes in their sexual preferences, but few who managed to completely abolish all homosexual desire. And remember, this wasn’t a study of people who’d simply undergone “ex-gay” therapy, but only of those who self-identified as having made a sustained and significant change in their orientation.
Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder’s 2002 study “Changing Sexual Orientation: A Consumers’ Report”** seems to be the best study on how successful “ex-gay” therapies actually are. This study involved interviewing 202 people who had undergone sexual orientation conversion intervention. 13% (26 people) of these people considered themselves to be success stories, but nearly half of these still experienced repeated “slips” into homosexual behavior. Of the remaining 14 people, 6 reported having successfully stopped engaging in homosexual behavior but still experienced some same-sex desire and did not self-identify as heterosexual. Only 8 people (4%) self-identified as heterosexual and reported exclusively engaging in heterosexual behavior with little or no same-sex desire.
Interestingly, 7 of these 8 people worked as “ex-gay” counselors, 3 on a volunteer basis and 4 for pay. In fairness, people who were truly successful in changing their sexual orientations would likely have an interest in helping others who wanted to do the same. But I can’t help but think that people who are themselves “ex-gay” counselors would have good reason to exaggerate how successful their own conversion has been.
The majority (77%) of the participants in Shidlo and Schroeder’s study indicated not only that the therapy hadn’t changed their sexual orientation, but that it had done them significant long-term damage. (Another 10% reported experiencing neither change in orientation nor any long-term psychological harm.) 11 participants reported attempting suicide after undergoing “ex-gay” therapy. Only 3 of these had previously attempted suicide. So it looks to me like “ex-gay” therapy is at least as likely to make people want to kill themselves as it is to result in a successful conversion to heterosexuality.
Based on this I continue to believe that while it’s possible that some very small minority of people may be able to genuinely change their sexual orientation through voluntary effort, the vast majority cannot and for the sake of their own mental health shouldn’t even try.
*There are some people who are pushed into “ex-gay” programs, sometimes teenagers forced into it by their own families, but there are also people who genuinely wish to change their sexual orientation because they believe that it is disordered, that it is sinful, or they are otherwise unhappy about not being heterosexual. What’s truly tragic is that the majority of these people will wind up even more unhappy for having tried to change their orientation.
*“Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation”, Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403–417.
**Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 2002, Vol. 33, No. 3, 249–259
It still sounds like the people in those studies were probably attempting to change because of some external pressure, rather than as a result of a decision they initiated on their own.
In truth though, I can’t imagine there would be very many people who would want to change their orientation all of their own accord.
The Shidlo and Schroeder study doesn’t provide a lot of detail as for people’s reasons for seeking sexual orientation conversion therapy, but it does say that about 3/4 of the respondents initiated the therapy themselves. That is, they sought out a counselor of some sort (the majority did actually see licensed metal health practitioners) and asked for help changing their sexual orientation. The other quarter were either referred for “ex-gay” therapy after seeking help for some other problem such as depression, or they were pushed into it. One respondent was attending a religious college and was told he had to go for “ex-gay” therapy or he’d be expelled.
*All other things being equal, I don’t think there would be. Shidlo and Schroeder do mention some reasons participants had for wanting to change that weren’t due to homophobia or religious conflict, though. Some felt they didn’t fit in with other gay/lesbian/bisexual people, and some were already in heterosexual relationships that they wanted to preserve.
This probably sounds all wrong, but I guess that even if it’s sometimes possible to change, but only if you want to, then not wanting to is the same as not being able to. Maybe the whole issue if choice is moot, if it’s not a choice you can make.
I believe that nature plus nurture puts everyone somewhere on the straight to gay continuum. People don’t have much choice who is attractive to them.
BUT as a bisexual who has chosen life with a same-sex partner, I get very annoyed at those (in this thread and elsewhere) who say “Clearly it’s not a choice. Who would choose a life like that? A life where they aren’t treated fairly, etc.”
Some of us do choose this life, even though we could choose otherwise, for reasons that vary, but generally boil down to “I love this person. It’s worth it to me.”
I think what people are saying (and I agree) is that though you chose to be with this particular partner, who happens to be of the same gender . . . you didn’t choose to be bisexual.
I agree with the OP. It seems as if the conservative Christian types have the idea that if they can somehow show that it is not a genetic factor, then it is a gotcha moment to prove how evil homosexuality is.
Likewise, gay rights activists seem to believe that if you can point to a genetic “cause” for homosexuality, then that is the slam dunk that makes it an acceptable lifestyle that needs protection.
I can’t understand why either one of these positions are true. There are many good and bad choices and there are many good and bad genetic factors. To make a value judgment based on nature vs. nurture seems silly to me.
My opinion is that while some people are more likely than others to be naturally inclined to be homosexual it is the choice in the sense that one can control the urges.
Is this based on anything? Because this sounds like just another phrasing of the traditional line of choosing to be gay.
Suppose you had to “control your urges” and only have sex with men. Could you do that?
Bad analogy. There are some homosexuals on other forums who I like as I described.
But sexuality isn’t simply about “urges”. It’s about pretty much the entirety you live your life. I mean, i’d say it’s a fair guess that you don’t act on every sexual urge you have. There are people who choose to be entirely celibate. But that doesn’t mean that you or they have no sexual preferences, nor that the non-voluntary aspects of that sexuality don’t occur.
Why should they ?
It’s a sin-but that’s a whole different topic.
It is, indeed, a different topic, so please refrain from posting stuff that is off-topic.
[ /Modding ]
I don’t see how anyone can possibly believe it is choice. The problem of course is if everybody finally admits it, then the contradictions with the bible have to be resolved. The religious pick out parts of it to buttress their bigotry. But if they have to accept that some are born that way, then the bible is flawed. I feel sorry for them that they have trapped themselves in such an ugly position.