Sexuality: Choice or not, and does it matter?

[Todderbob]

@Kobal2

Why should they ?

I’d like to point out that while I don’t agree (or disagree) with Curtis LeMay’s assessment of whether or not sexuality is, at least to some degree chosen (as I pointed out in my OP, there’s not sufficient actual evidence one way or the other)… I’d like to chime in with my personal opinion in that there’s no reason they should or shouldn’t, it’s not our place to impose that upon them.

@gonzomax

I don’t see how anyone can possibly believe it is choice. The problem of course is if everybody finally admits it, then the contradictions with the bible have to be resolved. The religious pick out parts of it to buttress their bigotry. But if they have to accept that some are born that way, then the bible is flawed. I feel sorry for them that they have trapped themselves in such an ugly position.

Really? That’s your reason for believing it’s a genetic thing (“born that way”)? To spite the Religious Right?

Ignoring, entirely, that the part of the Bible (the Old Testament) that homosexuality is detailed as a sin is for the most part ignored, except that passage, there’s the fact that the Mormon faith doesn’t even count blacks as people except in servitude, and it’s still going plenty strong.

There are people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. Pointing out to them that they’re wrong about sexuality isn’t going to change their minds.

[jackdavinci]

All behavior is choice. But the willpower necessary to choose a behavior is proportionate to the resistance of the opposing desire. And desire is mostly not a matter of choice, although it is influenced by it.

Yes it does matter, and no it doesn’t matter. Yes, in that the lack of choice means that legislating against behaviors has the burden of proof that it’s truly necessary. It doesn’t matter, in that those behaviors for which are absolutely truly necessary to legislate against (harmful, non adult consensual acts, which are not judged based on religious grounds) it doesn’t matter whether they are chosen or not.

[Anduril]

@StrangeBird

What I find interesting in this type of discussion is the implicit assumption that tends to surface that if something is influenced more by environment than genetic, it is somehow more subject to choice.

Obviously, we don’t choose our genetic makeup - but for the most part we don’t choose our early environment either.

I have no idea if it’s entirely genetic or environmental or both but it would seem that sexuality is immutable (or rather, mutable only under extreme conditions). While, there have been no conclusive study that points at a biological or genetic origin, the only psychological theory that tries to account for homosexuality (that I know hasn’t been debunked) maintains that it’s immutable (negative imprinting).

[Anduril]

@jackdavinci

All behavior is choice. But the willpower necessary to choose a behavior is proportionate to the resistance of the opposing desire. And desire is mostly not a matter of choice, although it is influenced by it.

But isn’t homosexuality about the desire and not necessarily the behavior. One can be a homosexual celibate, can’t you?

[Kobal2]

@tomndebb

It is, indeed, a different topic, so please refrain from posting stuff that is off-topic.

[ /Modding ]

Awwww, [del]M[/del]TOOOM !
I said this because I knew his answer would be a categorical, unthinking, knee-jerk “it’s bad juju”.
I fully planned on following up with “OK, and on that basis they shouldn’t have the right to marry ?” (so we’d have been back on the “does it matter ?” topic), and when he said yes I would have pointed that “having other Gods before Him” is technically also a sin but we still let Buddhists/Wiccans/Pagans/Shintoists marry, and adultery’s a bigger sin but we still let cheats re-marry or stay married, and he would have been all dazzled by my rhetorical flair (see fig. 1).

So. It was the perfect booby trap. I would have had gadfly cred up the wazoo and you’re just no fun and it’s not fair because *all *my friends’ moderators let them make fun of religious fundies ! GOD ! slams the door

[jackdavinci]

@Anduril

But isn’t homosexuality about the desire and not necessarily the behavior. One can be a homosexual celibate, can’t you?

Of course you can. One could also be a homosexual in a heterosexual marriage. One could also be ‘gay for pay’. One can always choose behavior that is not in line with their desires, or mediate between conflicting desires.

But the majority of practical debate on the subject and all of the relevant legislation has to do with behavior, and not with desire.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@gonzomax

I don’t see how anyone can possibly believe it is choice. The problem of course is if everybody finally admits it, then the contradictions with the bible have to be resolved. The religious pick out parts of it to buttress their bigotry. But if they have to accept that some are born that way, then the bible is flawed. I feel sorry for them that they have trapped themselves in such an ugly position.

Er – why?

Forget homosexual activity; are we trapped into rejecting the Ten Commandments as flawed if we discover a genetic predisposition to, say, kleptomania?

[Illuminatiprimus]

@Anduril

But isn’t homosexuality about the desire and not necessarily the behavior. One can be a homosexual celibate, can’t you?

Sure, but that’s not the question being asked here. I don’t think there’s any question that someone of any gender and sexuality can sit on their hands when it comes to deciding whether to have sex or not, the question is whether someone can choose which gender they are attracted to.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Er – why?

Forget homosexual activity; are we trapped into rejecting the Ten Commandments as flawed if we discover a genetic predisposition to, say, kleptomania?

Someone stealing from you negatively impacts you directly.

Someone having intercourse with someone else of the same sex (presumably consensual for this) has zero effect on you.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Whack-a-Mole

Someone stealing from you negatively impacts you directly.

Someone having intercourse with someone else of the same sex (presumably consensual for this) has zero effect on you.

Well, yeah, but I was replying to what gonzomax said about how a genetic component to homosexuality introduces a contradiction with the Bible, which must be flawed if some people are just born that way, which he said was a problem for said religious position.

I’m not arguing that anything is wrong with consensual intercourse; I already don’t see anything wrong with rather a lot of stuff prohibited by the Bible. I’m merely saying that I don’t see why “some are born that way” introduces a contradiction such that the Bible is flawed.

[Markxxx]

I’ve never run into anyone of any reasonable intelligence that thinks sexuality IS a choice.

Even the Catholic Church admits it’s not a choice.

But that isn’t the issue. You may not have the right to choose your sexuality but you certainly have the right not to act on it.

I’m a gay male, and I could have sex with female, but I wouldn’t like it. Would that make me straight? Of course not. But on the flip side, there’s nothing to say I have to have sex with a man either. I could simply not have sex period.

Being gay isn’t a sin, but acting on those feelings is a sin.

People who are attracted to little kids can’t help it, but they don’t have the right to act upon that. Why? Because those under 18 are not in a position to make responsible choices for themselves. The same way if I traded a penny to a 4 year old for hundred dollar bill, that would make me a total jerk. But if I traded a penny to an 18 year old for a hundred dollar bill, people would say the 18 year old is a fool for doing it.

You don’t choose to be gay, anymore than you choose to like pineapple on pizza or to hate brussel sprouts.

What gets lost is the fact, no one is really saying this. They are saying, so what if you didn’t choose to be that way, but you don’t have to act upon it.

So when questions like this get asked you need to better define your argument to get an answer