Ordering a lemon or lime with a soft drink it not a rule of etiquette in any situation. People may order a soda that way because they like it, but it is not a social expectation that one do so. The problem is not that I do not like this rule, the problem is that it does not exist. I’ve invited Shagnasty to prove me wrong on this point, but he can’t do it.
I don’t think anyone is trying to “make me” order lemon with my Coke, and I do not feel bad that I do not do this. I know how to behave in polite society. I have never embarassed myself. The only really uncomfortable moment I have ever had at a formal affair was when a Secret Service agent made a pass at me, and that’s not a problem with my manners.
I know the “traditional rules of etiquette”. I know full well that they do not obligate me to order a lemon with my Coke, and that no sane person would think less of me for not doing so. This is not an issue of great importance to the world, but I was under the impression that this board discouraged the spreading of misinformation. No one should come away from this thread with a false belief as to what is expected of them in a formal situation.
One of my friends claims that diet colas taste much better with lemon, because the lemon counters the artificial sweetener aftertaste. I don’t know if there’s anything to that, though.
Lamia, obviously it does bother you a great deal, or else you wouldn’t be getting so indignant about it. You’d think someone asked you to order a coke with a side of monkey poo from your reaction. If you don’t want to do it, have never done it and have never had an adverse reaction from not doing it (I can’t imagine you would), then for Og’s sake, relax and don’t stress off of it. Just treat Shagnasty’s failure to provide the golden cite as an admission that it’s not a hard and fast rule and move the hell on. Your insistance on bringing it up in every post you make only makes it appear to be a very big deal to you and makes it seem that you do in fact, care very much about the possibility of being judged for it.
And for the record, Diet Pepsi/Coke does in fact taste much better with lemon.
Miller, you’re a friend of mine on and off the boards so I don’t want to start shit with you, but I feel that you’re acting more than a bit ridiculous in this thread. There’s a time and a place for everything, including rules of ettiquette. As Stonebrow said earlier, just because some people may not agree on where specifically the line may be, does not mean the line is not there.
We don’t know that Shagnasty is making anything up. These may very well be expected behaviors in the particular situations he’s describing. Being very froo froo culinary gatherings. This doesn’t mean these rules apply everywhere, in every situation or that he’s making them up.
Look, don’t tell me what bothers me. I know what is bothering me here, and it is that Shagnasty is telling people something that isn’t true. There are plenty of incorrect things he could have posted that would have bothered me just as much. You do remember the mission of this board, right? And since this is the Pit, I don’t feel under any obligation to be particularly nice to someone who insists upon spreading misinformation.
*I am not stressed about my beverage choices. I rarely even order soda in bars.
*I will treat an admission that he was mistaken as an admission that he was mistaken. He’s had plenty of opportunity to make one. At any point he could have said “Sorry for the confusion, I didn’t mean that was an actual rule, I just meant it’s something people might like to do to make their soft drink seem a little fancier”, and that would have been fine. He could still do it, and it would still be fine, although I’d have to say “Why didn’t you just say that pages back?”
*Why would I be worried about something that I know for a fact is not going to happen? Once again, and I hope for the last time, what I am troubled by is that Shagnasty is misinforming people on a subject he claims to have expert knowledge about. Since this is a Pitting of him and he made the objectionable statement in this thread, this is the perfect place to bring it up. It’s not like I’m following him around to other threads and saying “Where’s your lemon, Mr. Snootypants?”
As this is his Pitting and the subject is relevant to this thread, I’m going to keep bringing it up until he retracts the claim or I get bored, whichever comes first. One of those events is fast approaching, but attempting to engage me in some sort of metadiscussion on the matter or play armchair shrink with me isn’t going to encourage me to drop it sooner.
Silly rabbit, tricks are for…
Um, I mean, you did notice the quotes around aristocrat?
Naw, because if you did, you wouldn’t make a fool out of yourself by calling it a strawman.
Besides, when your opening sentence calls people peasants, I think I’m well within my rights to say that you’re attempting to act like an aristocratic asshole.
If he’s not making it up, he ought to be able to come up with some sort of evidence for his claims, shouldn’t he? And even if he’s not talking completely out his ass, it seems pretty apparent that the “rules of ettiquette” he’s talking about are so narrow and so specific to venue that the conclusions he’s drawing about people for not understanding them are unwarranted.
Again, what’s being pitted here is not the idea that these rules exsist, but Shagnasty’s use of said rules as some sort of evidence of his own superiority. Ettiquette exsists to make sure everyone in a social situation enjoys themselves as much as possible, not as a means of playing a game of social one-upsmanship, as Shagnasty evidently believes.
And like others have asked for, I’d like a cite that drinking milk in public, or not asking for a slice of lime/lemon with a carbonated beverage, is an etiquette faux pas worthy of some of the comments I’ve seen here in this thread.
That is not the situation he was describing. You may want to re-read the post in question, #149, where he describes the situation as “a bar in an elegant setting”. That sort of place was also the setting of the original anecdote.
Miller, I’m with you. I just wish you’d been so calm and rational in your previous posts. And there are a lot of social rules that being specific to certain venues, aren’t written down anywhere. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I also don’t think that Shagnasty is using the rules to play a game of social one-upsmanship, I think maybe your own insecurities are creating specific intentions where none really exist. I think he was just demonstrating that there are certain expected social behaviors in certain situations that if not followed, may result in people judging you. Whether those judgments are valid or not is of no consequence. Whether the person doing the judging is a boor himself who obviously lacks a certain amount of class is also of no consequence. The fact is, depending on the situation, you may be judged. It’s a fact of life.
If I was in a wine bar on a first date and my date ordered milk, I’d think he was a little odd, yeah. And maybe even a bit unsophisticated. Would I never go out with him again because of it? Of course not, that’d be silly. Would I make a big deal out of it and embarrass him? Please. That’d be totally classless. But would I make some sort of judgment off of it? Yeah, probably. Because it’s a little strange, especially around here. If that makes me an unsufferable snob, so be it.
My my, being a bit intellectually dishonest aren’t we? No one here has said drinking milk is public is an ettiquette faux pas. People have said ordering milk in a fancy bar is odd. It IS.
And people are jumping on Shagnasty for making shit up…
It should also be unsurprising that there is, indeed, a long tradition of making value judgements upon the beverages you consume or serve. If alcohol was out of vogue then, why is it not possible that in certain circles, it is back in vogue, and milk is out? You must admit, milk is marketed, generally, as a child’s beverage. Building strong bones and all that. It’s also generally advertised in a less than highbrow manner, aint never seen nobody with a champaigne mustache.
It is important to realize that societal conventions are not absolute, and while it may indeed be true that some people would view you as an uncultured bumpkin for drinking a glass of milk at a fancy dinner party, that doesn’t make you one. Just means they might treat you that way.
Some people have said it is “odd”, while others (Shagnasty, for one) have said it’s an etiquette faux pas, and an act worthy of calling someone an unsophisticated social moron (i.e. simpleton). He also said the same of anyone that didn’t ask for lemon/lime with a soda or water. I would still like a cite that either of those things are an etiquette faux pas.
As for my extrapolating drinking milk in public from “ordering” milk - what do you think someone is going to do with whatever drink they order at whatever place? Toss it on the floor? They are going to DRINK it. Hence, my drinking milk in public comment.
You’re flip-flopping faster than an Olympic gymnast. In two posts three hours apart, you’ve gone from claiming that when you’re hanging out with Important People, you must follow certain rules of etiquette, and apparently these rules extend to your choice of beverage. Then you claim in your second post that anyone can do whatever they want, and Lamia is the one with the problem for denying that she will be judged for her choice of beverage, even though you’re the one telling her she will be judged. You’re just covering your ass by saying, “Of course you shouldn’t be judged,” while your previous post implies, “but you will.”
And x-ray vision, how dare you imply that lamia is the crazy one here.
*obviosuly not said by lezlers in the actual post I am quoting
I might as well tell you all now, that when you sit down in a mud pit with pigs, there are some rules to follow, otherwise the pigs may think you odd.
Do not sip the slop politely. Slurp, burp and grunt at will.
Do not say “excuse me” if you accidentally void yourself. Let the pigs sniff you and then move on as if all is normal.
Do not make sudden movements or loud noises. It upsets them.
Do not ask for a honeybaked ham.
Follow these rules, and you will find yourself accepted. Fail to obey them at your own peril. Pigs bite.
lezlers, do not create quotes to falsely attribute to others, even with a tiny disclaimer at the end. It’s a dishonest tactic; it puts your words into someone else’s mouth. If you can’t actually find a quote that actually suits your argument then everything else is your interpretation. Consider youself warned. Do not do this again.
Rufus Xavier, I’m just noting to you that turning a bad tactic back onto the source just compounds the fracture. Your post was so clearly intented to highlight the problem I’ll exempt you from warning. Next time just report the infraction though, please, or at least don’t use it yourself.
This confuses and misleads people reading posts. Argue it cleanly or don’t bother.
