Ok, let me explain a few things to the people that are dissecting things.
I was raised in Louisiana in one of the poorest areas of the country and my parents were intelligent but not what I would call sophisticated at all. I managed to get a full scholarship to Tulane in New Orleans and I worked my way through college being a bartender and wedding host at one of the most beautiful mansion hotels in New Orleans. From there, I went to graduate school at Dartmouth. Then, I married into a prominent family in the international gourmet foods business based in Boston.
There is a reason all this is relevant:
New Orleans and Dartmouth are famous for their drinking culture. The purpose of a lemon or lime in soda or drinking just mixers is to discretely disguise the fact that you are not drinking an alcoholic beverage. If you are not drinking, it makes people wonder why not and none of the conclusions they may draw are flattering in that context. It may also make other people feel uncomfortable that you are not fully participating in the event with them. This is especially important in New Orleans.
The other guests attending the gourmet foods events that I attend with my wife are all in the gournet foods trade. They are, in fact, very snooty when it comes to food and drink because that is their life and passion. I am sure that you all have something that you are passionate about and would not be flattered if someone flaunted complete ignorance about this subject in front of you when it was the focus of the evening. This explanation applies to Suzie and her date.
Nobody is going to write these rules down because they are too subtle and do not apply to all people or situations. It does make you a simpleton if you act exactly the same way at the local watering hole as you do at a black tie affair in Paris.
Well we all have experiences to share. I’ve hosted a dinner for Kasparov, dined with the Bishop of Peterborough and accepted a World Championship award at a banquet from a leading statesman.
Down one rough pub I know, if you say you’re not having a drink (because you’re driving), you’ll be called a fckng bstrd.
From what you say, it appears New Orleans and Dartmouth drinkers have a lot to learn about manners and class.
No, it doesn’t.
If invited to e.g. a wine tasting, I would check up on the correct procedure and behave accordingly.
If out on a date, I would make my date feel as comfortable as possible, not act as pretentiously and as shallow as I could.
It is equally ridiculous to compare well-attended social occasions to a date.
In my experience, the only people who give a shit about whether or not someone else is drinking alcohol have their own problems with alcohol. They are unable to function socially without booze but are aware, on some level, of their own drinking issues, are in denial about them, and can’t cope with someone being in full control of themselves.
I can see this applying to a keg party in a frat house, but not among “sophisticated” adults. As various people have pointed out, it’s about the socializing, not marching in lockstep to the prandial choices of snobs.
By the way, the fact that your friend was “shocked and confused” (your words, not mine) by Suzie’s choice of milk is simply hilarious. He must find life among the commoners difficult.
I can’t speak for him but I know that I find life among commoners excruciating. Luckily, you can shield yourself from most of it if you plan well and move to a suburb that is heavily segregated from them (socioeconomically speaking that is). I am realistic however, and know that you can’t always protect yourself or your family from those people as much as you would like too. I took my family into Boston today and we brushed up against people below the solid middle-class repeatedly. I am not so worried for myself but I did talk with my daughter to explain what we saw and never to repeat those behaviors.
I assume you are being sarcastic. (I hope you are!)
However this is exactly how John in your anecdote behaves. Doesn’t this make you realise what’s wrong with him?
Number one, I never said anyone must do anything. Please, quote me saying that. There is no flip flopping. I said there are people that will judge you. Because guess what? There are. I said you’ll be judged. Because guess what? You will. But nowhere did I say the rules must be followed. If you don’t care that you’re being judged, don’t follow them!
Rufus, I have no idea what the hell you’re trying to say.
What “rule?” Is there a rule that says one must never order milk in a bar? Shagnasty, there’s a name for people who get angry when people aren’t drinking with them-they’re called alcoholics. I’d rather been seen as an “unsophistocated simpleton” than a fucking boozer.
If we take Shagnasty’s story on face value (with the added information he’s given us), it seems like, in order to really offend someone by drinking milk, you’d have to be in a very specific, narrow sort of situation (high falutin’ foodie types, bizarro New Orleans types who are actually bothered if they see someone else perhaps not drinking alcohol). And how many of us are going to find ourselves in that situation? .02%? So what was the point of the story? That drinking milk (or not having a lemon or lime in your drink) might rattle some foodie crackpots, if you’re in just the (extremely unlikely) right place at the right time. Frankly, knowing how to avoid offending some too-tightly-wound gourmet geek—that I’ll probably never meet—by choosing milk (or, God Forbid, not having citrus in my soda) was not on my list of top priorities.
And if, God Forbid, I offend someone by making it obvious that I’m not drinking alcohol, then I don’t want to know them. I don’t drink. I don’t care either way if those around me drink, but I cannot imagine being in a situation where it will be vital that I “fool” people into thinking I’m drinking alcohol.
This whole thread was spawned from another that was a rant about picky eaters. So, I’m on a date with someone and they want to visit the snooty whine (yeah, I know it’s wine) bar. Either I object to going to the whine bar, because I don’t drink and the scent of alchohol offends me to no end and drunks make me want to commit homicide (and there is always a drunk in every bar you go to no matter how snooty, so don’t bother denying it), thus labeling myself as a form of picky eater, or I go to the bar and grit my teeth, but by doing so I get labeled as an unsophisticated lout because I order a diet coke. I like the lemon or lime that may come with my coke, but I won’t ask for it. Apparently, you can’t win if you are not an alchoholic, or potential alchoholic, in this situation.
It seems that Shagnasty seems to think etiquette is about how to impress others. (BTW, am I the only one who finds it amusing that the one yelping about uncouth simpletons and low class has a name like “Shagnasty”?)
I am doing just fine thank you very much. The only point was that you shouldn’t order milk in a swanky Manhattan bar if you are on a first date with someone that cares deeply about food and drink unless you intend to make a bad impression on purpose. There are comparable guidelines for lots of social activities that are just based on common sense. It has nothing to do with me although I do follow the rules that I listed when drinking non-alcoholic beverages in situations that warrant them. Simple huh?
I have written a lot of contraversial, confrontation, and inflammatory things in my nearly five years on this board. Topics have spanned politics, religion, science, and the arts. Most of it went by with only a peep. The thing that I finally get called to the table on to defend my personality, my family, and my views is a simple glass of milk. I guess Forrest Gump was right about those chocolates.
Can we move on now and discuss Suzie’s wedding this past summer? She had a cash bar even for sodas and juice ($3+)!. Now that is just gauche.
Well, controversial views on politics, religion, science and the arts are par for the course on these boards, and even the most controversial views can be defended intelligently (by some people, at least).
What got you in hot water here was not that your viewpoint was controversial, just that it was dumb as pigshit.
I have to agree with what Lezler’s is trying to say here. She is NOT saying anyone has to be anything, but merely pointing out the realities of relationships (of all sorts, not just romantic sorts) among we humans.
I’ve slogged trhough most of the 9,000 posts in this thread. I’ve come to the conclusion that a lot of the heat being generated on both sides is because people are assigning a value of “Good” or “Bad” to the term “sophisticated”.
Where if a person chooses not to date someone because they’re not “sophisticated” it then means that being unsophisticated (and this IS the correct spelling BTW, to whomever was making fun of Zoe) is BAD, and that that person must then be judged as being somehow unworthy, or unattractive.
Not necessarily so, it merely means that the person lacks a specific trait that the other person finds necessary in their lives and relationships with others. No different than needing to find someone who also wants children (or doesn’t), or someone that doesn’t smoke.
It’s most basic definition doesn’t carry a connotation of good or bad, or even desireable, or undesireable.
1.) Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. (nothing wrong with living life enjoying simpler pleasures, or being naive).
2.) Very complex or complicated: the latest and most sophisticated technology.
3.)Suitable for or appealing to the tastes of sophisticates: a sophisticated drama.
So, according to the most basic understanding of the term “sophisticated” drinking milk in a fancy bar, really IS a bit unsophisticated. It’s NOT that milk itself is unsophisticated, it’s that in a sophisticated world, things drinking iced tea or milk in a fine dining or drinking establishment show a lack of worldliness. To state such is making NO judgment on a person’s desireability, worth, attractiveness, intelligence and so on. Merely that said person isn’t aware of the more common and accepted practices when in such a place and time. And again, nothing BAD or UNWORTHY about that, merely unknowledgeable of that particular practice.
A late model, beige-champagne Buick Park Avenue is “sophisticated”, a fire engine red 1968 Camero with flames painted on the fenders is not. Neither car is “better” than the other one (well okay, personally, I think the Camero knocks spots off the Buick, but that’s just personal taste).
A person wanting a partner that shares and is comfortable in the practices and such of certain type of lifestyle is not “judging” that other person’s worth, but is judging how well they will mesh with them relationship-wise and lifestyle-wise. It’s not different than a person realizing that Mr. Natural Granola, Rides-his-bike-to-work-on-purpose-in-all-weather is a red flag for Ms. I-refuse-to-ever-be-more-than-2-miles-distance-from-civilization-EVER. This is not a judgment on either Mr. Granola’s goodness, or worhiness NOR on Ms. Mall’s. Merely understanding and acceptance that this is likely (though of COURSE exceptions apply in all cases) not going to be a good choice to fit into the other person’s life.
We all do that when dating, and we do it, for the most part subconsciously and regarding a large variety of character traits, practices, and actions on the other person’s part.
I hate to go back to this but, bars (by the term “bars” I mean “places that serve booze of any type, no food.”) do not, as a common practice, stock milk.
I know several folks have had a problem with this idea. However, I have gone on an extended field trip over the last 36 hours to research the point I tried to make previously in this thread. It has required me to drink a fair amount of bourbon and start conversations with bartenders that have made them look at me like I suddenly had a second head sprout out of my neck.
The point is this: of 9 people who are currently bartenders (with a cumulative number of years of experience approaching 41 years as bartenders) and 5 who have been bartenders in the last 9 years but are no more, only **one ** of them has ever had someone order milk in a bar.
Number of times these 14 people had milk available to serve to someone?
0 (zero).
Of course, this could be an odd Chicago kind of thing. I doubt it.
My point is, and always has been,
Drink all the milk you want. I love it. But: don’t expect BARS to serve you milk. They don’t stock it on a regular basis and never will. They have no use for it. Half and half and cream are another story.
Damn.
I gotta go lie down. All that bourbon is making my head spin.
Maybe a nice glass of warm milk will settle me down just fine.
I don’t think it was the use of the term “unsophisticated” that pushed peoples’ buttons, it was the use of the word “simpleton,” which, you have to admit, is usually an insult. Simpleton does not equal “unsophisticated,” I don’t care how someone wants to parse it.
I don’t think that was the issue either, or at least it wasn’t with many of us. So she wasn’t a match. No big deal. Everyone makes these sort of decisions.
The problem was that Shagnasty told the story as a way of warning us that we might be judged—in a harmful way—by choosing the “wrong” drink. But the girl in the story was not harmed, she was simply not a match for a somewhat anal (sounds like), odd, difficult man.
If any of us are “judged” as an unsuitable mate for: not drinking alcohol, or not listening to the kind of music we don’t like to listen to, or for not reading the kinds of books we don’t want to read, we’re lucky. If some guy decides that my passion for Jerry Goldsmith and Jean Sibelius makes me completely wrong for him, that’s great. I don’t want to be around him either—no offense, no “right” or “wrong,” just, adios buddy.
But that’s not how the story was presented. It was told kind of like she made a mistake of some kind. It was told as a way of warning us that we might be harshly judged if we don’t watch out. If he wanted to drive that point home to us, he certainly chose the wrong story.
She didn’t make any “mistake”—not a significant one, anyway. Any more than I’d be making a mistake by telling someone that I adored Jerry Goldsmith, simply because there was some bizarre arbitrary “rule” amongst some small faction of people which dictated that film composer admiration was not exactly of the highest caliber. Even if my admiration of Goldsmith would shock and appall some people, it’s fine, because 1) that’s their problem and they’re whacked if it really makes them upset, (just like drinking a dairy product or not properly camouflaging a soft drink also cannot be, by any stretch of the imagination, that appalling of a transgression) and 2) anyone who is appalled by an admiration of Jerry Goldsmith is no fit company for me anyway.
I don’t think that’s what set people off. I think it was the overblown presentation, i.e. Screeeeech! It was a stupid story. She didn’t do anything so terribly wrong. No harm was done. It was a big fat nothing, other than if the guy used the milk-drinking as the only reason to not see her again, then, whoa—that is a difficult, anal person. But that, once again, is not her problem.
But the story was presented in such a way as if to tell us, “SEE? See what might happen to you?” That was bizarre. It wasn’t a big deal. Her behavior did not cause any her undesireable consequences. It sure as hell wasn’t “uncouth” and “off-the-wall” either, both which Shagnasty used to describe the ordering of the milk.
[QUOTE=yosemite]
I don’t think it was the use of the term “unsophisticated” that pushed peoples’ buttons, it was the use of the word “simpleton,” which, you have to admit, is usually an insult. Simpleton does not equal “unsophisticated,” I don’t care how someone wants to parse it.
Yes, you’re right and I did forget to include a disclaimer that I didn’t agree with his “and this is what you get” stance. Nor do I agree at all that it’s uncouth, or off the wall. I personally would only find it slightly naive, and it alone wouldn’t put me off someone.
Sorry, was so busy analyzing the definitions of sophisticated that I neglected to include the OP’s crime.
