I won’t deny that some people do believe that “Drinking is cool! Only babies and losers don’t drink!” Occasionally the self-appointed Fun Police will notice that someone else isn’t drinking alcohol and start making a big deal about it. This is not, however, behavior I associate with formal affairs or elegant bars. It is behavior I have encountered primarily at the kinds of events where homemade Jell-o shots were being served and people were showing off their body piercings. That sort of party can be fun, but “sophisticated” doesn’t really describe it.
In any event, disguising your drink can only be effective at a gathering large enough that everyone didn’t hear everyone else’s order. On a date, such as that described in the original anecdote, there’s no missing the fact that your partner is not having alcohol. If the young lady had ordered a virgin Bloody Mary or Coke with a twist, her date still would have known she wasn’t drinking.
At a large gathering someone who doesn’t drink, especially someone recovering from a drinking problem, may want to disguise their beverage to avoid any potential confrontation with the Fun Police. This is reasonable enough, but it isn’t a rule of etiquette. There’s nothing wrong with openly having a soft drink. It isn’t vulgar, uncouth, unsophisticated, or childish to choose a beverage without alcohol. Anyone who has a problem with that is displaying not only poor manners and a lack of class, but a lack of basic decency.
Former bartender checkin’ in: Any bar that serves mixed drinks stocks milk. Milk is used as an ingredient in several mixed drinks, the most well known being the White Russian (most bars use milk, not cream unfortunately).
When I was an actively drinking alcoholic (a long time ago, thankfully!) it was very unnerving for me to see others who weren’t drinking like I was. It fed my fear that my behavior was abnormal, and that I ought to do something about it. I didn’t like the fear, so I’d immediately respond by trying to get the other person to drink, dammit! If they didn’t, I’d get more uncomfortable. I recall feeling contempt at the “unsophisticated” people who didn’t drink like I did!
Now, that behavior is not universal for, nor limited to alcoholics. But it’s not at all uncommon.
I could really be an asshole when I was drinking. Even moreso than today!
How’s the recovery going, Shagnasty? The first year is a challenging one. I sure know, I had 3 failed attempts at putting together a sober first year, before succeeding!
So NOW she is. After 7 pages the jig is up - Suzie is “gauche”. Shagnasty simply has no end to the depth of his foul pompous abusery!! Thank god you jumped in Duke. Have an all dairy enema on me.
[sniff]Will us drinkers of milk and grape kneehighs ever be truly free? They just want us all to be alcoholics[/sniffles]
I look at it this way–it can be very uncomfortable to share an experience on a date, especially a first date, when the appreciation of the experience is completely asymmetric.
Let’s say I ask a girl out to the local upscale steakhouse, and she says yes. When asked for her order, she tells me to “go ahead”, and I order the bone-in ribeye, a baked potato, and a glass of good Cabernet. She then asks for a bowl of plain lettuce and a glass of water, because it turns out she’s a vegan on a strict low-carb diet.
I might think she’s weird for this, but I would not think she was in any way “inferior” because of it. I would be royally pissed, however, that this didn’t come up when I suggested the Gate City Chop House as a first-date venue, and that I would be spending the rest of the evening wolfing down cow while she looks on and picks at her romaine. This is exactly how I’d feel if I invited someone to a swanky Manhattan beer and wine bar, she agreed to go, and then she ordered a glass of milk.
No. At most, they show a lack of worldliness with respect to one particular activity—that of drinking in a bar. This has no necessary correlation to one’s level of sophistication in other areas of life.
You are correct, but remember that this thread was started with a direct reference to Shagnasty’s comment, and he can weasel all he likes, but the fact is that he was making a “judgment on a person’s desireability, worth, attractiveness, intelligence and so on.”
And once again, we run up against the extremely subjective nature of the term “sophisticated.” There are plenty of people in the world who wouldn’t consider any Detroit-made car to be sophisticated, and would instead point you to a Jaguar, or a Mercedes S-Class, or an Aston Martin. Does their opinioin, then, make you unsophisticated for admiring anything so gauche as a Buick?
Well, your sample notwithstanding, i’ve worked in bars on three continents, and every bar i’ve ever worked in had milk in the fridge. It’s main purpose was for addition to certain cocktails, but if someone had asked for a glass of milk, we wouldn’t have thought twice about serving it straight up.
Exactly.
Despite the fact that i think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it, i do agree that i would be somewhat surprised if someone ordered a glass of milk in a fancy wine bar or cocktail bar. But Shagnasty went well beyond such a raising of the eyebrows and turned his whole story into a cheap little morality tale about how the stupid girl missed out on landing the rich guy. And that makes him an idiot.
Unless you were an orphan that was never the one picked for adoption, you should realize that family’s have many different branches and are not always the same. In this case, it is father’s side versus mother’s side.
Thanks for asking, Quadgop! Recovery is going very well even though I am fully aware that I always have to stay on my toes. I am doing everything that people tell me in order to make it and it is working so far. I can’t say that it is the easiest or most enjoyable thing though. Either I make it or I lose everything and die early. The only way that I was lucky in alcoholism is that I never hit bottom in the way that many other people do. I still have everything that I always did so that is a big positive and I use it as an incentive.
I was talking to my wife about Suzie last night and amazingly enough my wife brought up that story. I didn’t tell her what a response it brought out here. My wife then mentioned the 100% cash bar for everything at her wedding. We only brought a little cash with us to the reception (who would think) and we ran out before it was over. When she brought that up, I just said screw it and posted it being sarcastic because people seem so fascinated with all of this.
My wife and I love Suzie. She is who she is, however, and I think that she would lose her charm if she ever did develop sophistication and polish.
Nothing wrong with having a relatively high bottom. Mine could have been a lot lower. Though each time I failed to stay in recovery, the bottom did get lower.
My god… I have no idea why I read this thread, and now I kind of of wish I could get those 20 minutes back.
But I did learn one important skill (which I don’t need anyway, being married and all):
If you go out on a date, make sure to order milk. This will act as a good way to filter out the pretentious assholes you might accidentally date.
Anyone who equates sophistication with correct beverage choices is a simpleton.
Decent people are hard enough to find that it’s idiotic to filter out potential mates based on ridiculous criteria like whether they order appropriate drinks or know how to handle the sommelier in a fancy restaraunt.
If it were me and a woman ordered a milk, I’d be thinking, “Hey, she’s unique! She’s comfortable enough in her own skin that she doesn’t have to order something she doesn’t like just to impress me. Cool!”
I’m not sure why, but this struck me as wildly funny. If I ever date again, I think I’ll order the cheapest, rotgut whiskey I can think of (Early Times, or something like that?), or Mad Dog 20/20, or a glass of Boone’s Farm Strawberry Hill, just to see the reaction.
I’ve carefully refrained from posting in either this or the picky eater thread until now, but I’ve spent hours alternately scratching my head in puzzlement at the importance that some place on one’s food/drink choices, and marveling at the vitriol and pretentiousness in both threads.
I think that food and drink choices may rival politics as far as divisive issues go, here.
Seven pages over a goddamned glass of milk, with plenty of outrage on both sides. She’s a cad and a simpleton; he’s a food Nazi and probably an alcoholic. There is obviously a culture war here, with the one side valuing social order and the other side valuing individual rights.
Which brings up a point - if this rich guy in Shagnasty’s story was all about class and appropriate behaviour, what was he doing ordering before her? If the milk was such a big deal for her, sounds like she was well rid of him. It’s not like she proceeded to blow milk bubbles into it once it arrived??
I asked this earlier and it never got answered, but I think the answer has a direct bearing on who’s snooty and who’s a simpleton.
Shagnasty: How do we know that he turned on her because of the milk?
Did she tell you that’s what happened? If so, how did she know that was the problem and not something else? Did he comment on it?
OR - did she tell you that she ordered milk and then you surmised that’s what happened?
OR - did *he * tell you that’s what happened?
