Matt, if I was out on a date with you, I’d be wondering why I was on a date with a man.
Well, it’s both of these gentlemen’s rights to believe that. Frankly, without being given more information, I am obliged to agree with their assessment. If you are taken out to a a high-end wine bar and treated to expensive wine, and you order milk…well, all things being equal, you are quite unsophisticated. If you are a non-drinker, there are several ‘sophisticated’ alcohol free options available to you.
We didn’t hear anything from **Shagnasty ** to indicate that she was a non-drinker. Maybe all of her beverages need an umbrella on top of them. I don’t know, and really don’t care. It seemed clear to me that the gentleman in his story was quite into fine wines, and when presented with someone that was neither familiar with, not showed any desire to be familiar with, one of his passions, he moved right along.
Some things are considered ‘high’ culture. If you aren’t familiar with them, you are unsophisticated, almost by definition of the word. If you show no interest in high culture whatsoever, I can see how someone versed in in would consider you a simpleton. we’ve not been given any more information on this woman- she might have been a poet, painter, musician, etc. ad nauseum, but all things being equal, the fact that she did not appreciate that ‘hey, this is a really high end place, and maybe I should not order off the kiddie menu’ leads me to believe that she’s not.
Again, I have to ask how ordering a drink that is actively marketed to adults is childish.
I also wonder what makes, say, a nasty-ass glass of club soda more sophisticated than milk. This seems bizarre and completely arbitrary.
So if you aren’t familiar with every single thing that could be considered “high culture,” then you are unsophisticated? Shit, being around you would probably make the Queen of England nervous.
I’m guessing that the true point of the anecdote was that rohypnol does not dissolve easily in milk. 
If the point of this conversation were the relationship between the lady and the man, I’d wonder what else happened that evening. She may claim it was the milk, but perhaps he was upset with her incessant need to do every little thing against the grain, the milk being a small symptom of that affliction. Or perhaps it was her finger which she insisted on keeping two nuckles deep in her nose.
But that isn’t the point of this conversation. The question is whether reasonable people turn their noses up at someone in a bar who chooses to drink milk.
I’m with the OP and think the lady in question is better off without the so-called sophisticate.
But then I’ve never been accused of being too sophisticated.
But then nobody’s every accused me of being sophisticated.
It has been marketed to adults over the last decade due to a very long tradition of it being a children’s drink.
Arbitrary? Of course it is. But, as I tell my etiquette classes, so is driving on the right side of the road (or the left, for that matter). But if you don’t want a head-on collision, you learn very quickly which way to go.
Not every thing, no. That would be silly. But does it surprise you that people might value things that require a certain amount of talent, or have a timeless quality to them? Or that, once having been exposed to them, would think better of someone who has as well?
I am quite unsophisticated when it comes to classical music, though I enjoy listening to it. My Lady, however, is quite versed in it, and I value that trait in her. I imagine that she’d consider me a simpleton if I were just as moved by Bowling for Soup as I am by Bach.
and in case I wasn’t clear, I’m not too sophisticated. gotta work on those editing skills.
Why?? The whole point of that other trainwreck was to criticize that sub-category of people whose picky eating/drinking habits prevent others from going places they enjoy, and inhibit other people from having fun in a variety of settings, just because the picky person vetoes all the “cool” places. For G-D’S FUCKING SAKE, this woman behaved exactly like all the santimonious assholes in that other thread were demanding she should act, and she (apparently) graciously accepted an invitation to a swank bar, even though she either doesn’t drink or simply didn’t feel like it that night. Perhaps she went because she loves the atmosphere in those places, or she’d been hearing so much about it and was genuinely excited to check it out for herself, but would never have initiated going on her own, precisely because she doesn’t drink. Maybe she heard they play great music there. Or maybe, just maybe, she was happy to go wherever her date wanted to take her, and not make a big fucking stink about it (like what’s been complained about), because she was simply interested in his company and getting to know him, and unconcerned with the specific meal or drink establishment because she knew she could happily find something on any menu that would appeal to her.
You assholes can’t have it both ways.
And that’s the point of this pitting, not the fact that sometimes the slightest quirk can turn a potential date off – that’s reality and there’s nothing that can be done about it – and also a different thread.
But it was a ridiculous story to tell in an effort to somehow bolster the “picky eaters are selfish/rude/childish” side of the argument, when, in fact, it proves exactly the fucking opposite!!! That’s what qualifies it as “the Worst Anecdote in SDMB History.”
This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.
I’ve read this whole thread, but my eyes are starting to glaze over, so forgive me—I’m probably rehashing old stuff.
I agree that it’s fine to decide, based on several subtle cues (including milk drinking), that this person is not for you. I think that one cue (drinking milk) is not enough, and a person who decides that they don’t want to see someone based only on milk (unless they have some severe milk aversion issues) is being way too shallow.
With that said, hey, it’s fine to decide, “This person likes/doesn’t like football/opera/science fiction, and there were some other ‘alarm bells’ with them, so I knew that it was not going to work out.” We all do that. There’s nothing wrong with doing that.
What is offensive, I think, about Shagnasty’s little story is that he called her a “simpleton,” for one thing. I can’t see how that is anything other than an insult. “Unsophisticated,” yes, I can see how that might be appropriate (might) for this woman, but “simpleton” means (to a lot of us), “simple minded,” “not smart,” “doofus.” It’s not merely another way of saying “unsophisticated.” It’s got more of an edge to it.
The other thing that isn’t quite offensive, but is stupid, is assuming that this story was going to illicit a reaction of, “Ooooh. Wow. She really missed out because she didn’t impress this guy!” But she missed out on nothing. This guy was not for her—not because there was anything wrong with her, but because this guy was not for her.
It would be like telling a story about a pharmacist who went out with a dog groomer, and he decided he didn’t want to continue seeing her because she works with dogs. Should she feel bad, like she missed out on something, because her working with dogs was unacceptable to this other guy? Hell no. It just wasn’t going to work out, that’s all. But if someone were to tell the story of these two people, and their intent was to show us how sad it was that she was a dog groomer, and look what she missed out on because of it, we’d think they were WHACKED. And rightly so. Same with this, IMHO.
Driving on the right side of the road isn’t ettiquette. It’s the law. And that’s because if you drive on the wrong side of the road, people die. There’s noting arbitrary about it.
How is that even remotely analogous to ordering a glass of milk in a bar? Aside from the fact that neither is a matter of ettiquette, of course. Somehow, I doubt that was the point you were trying to make.
“simpleton” is derived from simple + -ton (as in surnames such as Washington) and is defined by Webster as "a person lacking in common sense ".
I think this definition is certainly appropriate to describe someone who orders milk in a wine bar. Literally, she made herself appear “simple”. Uneducated in the ways of city life.
I mean what do people want? That we should say “good for her ordering milk in a wine bar”? Way to express your individuality? It’s freakin WIERD! MILK? WTF?!! What is this woman? A psychopath? Who in their right mind orders milk in a bar? If she showed up wearing a fanny pack and an oversized T-shirt would that be OK to? She’s trying to impress this guy after not dating for over a YEAR and she asks for a bottle of their finest 1%? Maybe a side of chocolate chip? I can’t imagine her looking any less sophisticated if she ordered a glass of White Zinfandel.
It’s not a matter of having it both ways. it’s a matter of there being a large swath of middle ground out there that won’t offend anyone or turn anyone off. The last thread got bogged down in more strawmen than I can name- though being asked to eat a live roasted goose is my favorite of the bunch- and i guess we can do that here as well.
This guy took her out, she did something pretty silly in his eyes, and that’s that. She allowed her personal preference to get in the way of the ‘smooth running’ of their time, and it pretty much ended the date. Notice that’s the same criticism leveled at Picky Eaters- not that they have a limited diet, but that accommodating them usually ruins the ‘flow’ of social interaction.
We can debate about how much of an ass the guy is, or how snobbish I am, whatever. But to say that Shagnasty was being inconsistent is just untrue.
I had thought I was clear. Deciding which side of the road we will all drive on is a completely arbitrary decision. There’s nothing morally better about either side. We’ve just formalized it by law- so that we all understand that it’s what you’re supposed to do and there are no messy misunderstandings. (aside: this analogy is usually very well received in my seminars, since most people here drive a lot)
There are also ‘laws’ to our interactions with other people. They are unwritten, but carry the weight of tradition, and in most cases, practicality, with them.
Ordering milk in a bar is well outside the normal parameters of what is socially acceptable for an adult to order at a bar on a date with another adult. You can argue about whether that makes someone a simpleton or not, but a lot of folks are acting like it’s a common thing, when it’s not. Let’s not get wrapped up in the ‘she should be free to order whatever she wants’ rhetoric. I’m not denying that- but we are also free to make judgments on her choices.
At best, it’s eccentric. It also might show a clear lack of understanding of social norms. Given **Shagnasty’s ** background with this woman, I assumed the latter was the case.
It’s Paul Harvey!
Which side was chosen may have been arbitrary, but the decision to choose one side that everyone has to drive on was not: there is a concrete reason for having such a law, because without it, lots and lots of people wind up dead. If you want to create an analogy between this and drinking milk at a bar, you’re going to have to explain how drinking milk at a bar impacts anyone other than the milk drinker.
“Not common” is not the same as “impolite.” Sure, it’s unusual. So what? That doesn’t make it unacceptable, or a matter of ettiquette.
Yes, you are free to make judgements on her choices. Just as I am free to make judgements about your judgements. And my judgement is… well, I think at this point you can pretty much guess what my judgement of you is.
And how the hell does her choice of drinks “ruin the flow of social interaction?”
I have really enjoyed this pitting in honor of me. That story was something I threw into the other “foodie” thread as an afterthought. I didn’t know if would take on a life of its own. That is great though.
Some people asked for minor clarifications.
- Suzie does drink but it tends to be fruity, novelty drinks or wine coolers. I believe that she just didn’t want to drink that night.
- Suzie is still a very good friend of me and my wife. However, she is the epitome of unsophisicated and I used simpleton as something to that effect.
- She met her date at the largest gourmet food expo in the country. It is generally assumed that any people you meet there will be familiar with tastes and conventions revolving around food and drink.
- Suzie is married now but he is very unsophisicated too so they make a happy pair.
Do me a favor, Shagnasty. Show Suzie what you wrote about her. Then come back and tell us if she’s still your friend.
I am a fucking Psychic. Bow to me!
-stonebow, the totally awesome psychic snob
She might have impressed her potential paramour had she chosen an expensive wine (with a little subtle help from him, probably), but I doubt they’d have been at all compatible all the same.
If you’d drink milk rather than alcohol, this sort of confusion would be less frequent.