Sheep go to heaven; Goats go to hell, or Scott_plaid's very own atheism thread

The BBQ Pit
41

I think I see what you mean, but I believe that the idea that the direct quotes from the bible have affected the evolution of the entire world. I also kinda see what you mean about straw men attracts accept that the arguments I have present from the religious point of view are one I have seen in real life, unlike your average straw man against atheist. (all atheists are trying to destroy your family, for example.) The fact that people can chose to ignore the parts of the bible that teaches such view points makes it no less horrible. I suppose I could put a disclaimer stating “most christians do not take these literally, but…" but I don’t think that would work judging from past responces, but perhaps I am wrong.

As long as I have your attention, I was amazed by the bizarre comparison andros made comparing comic strips that a lot of people enjoy, and a shit sandwich in here http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5896008&postcount=9
I was considering finding the troll behavior definition, but I realized that given the general outlook here, perhaps my own response to question of religion can be considered trolling, when I have responded to question of religion being false with a simple “yes”. I thus ask for clarification, and elaboration. Should I start out with small steps, asking how people have understood verses, or should I state my viewpoint on the verse in question, or should I simply accept that posting my belief that what the literal view that the catholic church has taught for the last millenia+ will upset people, and that the majority of posters prefer to think that religious outlooks have only a good effect upon the word.

42

Scott_plaid, now, see, this is your problem-you keep stating things that are wrong.

The Catholic church has NEVER taught a literalist view, or at least, not the kinds of literalist views we see today among some Protestant denominations.

43

Are you actually interested in a respectful debate where both sides are open to learning new things, or are you just interested in expressing your view? Your mind may not be changed but at least you will be educated in the range of viewpoints out there. You also won’t find a large group of Christians who take the Bible as literal around here so in a sense you are preaching to the choir but gratingly.

And BTW, the Catholic church tends to not go with a literal view of things like the creation story. Belief in Catholicism and evolution are not mutually exclusive.

44

Or,what Guin said :wink:

45

I have always believed that the catholic church etc…, but I will now google it, and I would appreciate your telling me what you have heard on this. As opposed to your saying I 'm wrong, and not showing any facts.

46

Scott_Plaid, you need to stop posting for a while, and do some serious lurking. Read threads. Read a lot of them. Learn how people address each other in the different types of fora. Read all the stickies, and memorize the ones that have the word “Rule” in them.

I’m willing to wager there are at least as many athiests as there are religiously observant folks here; certainly athiests plus agnostics outnumber the observant. You’re not going to get pounded, or ignored, for questioning the role of religion in society, or for pointing out the bad behavior of adherents. So it ain’t your views that get you in trouble - it’s your style.

What does get you noticed in a bad way is sloppy thinking, sloppy typing, and dishonest debate. Don’t go into GD and introduce a topic, then skip out with “I’m not really serious” the first time somebody calls you on loose logic. Don’t make a habit of wandering into threads and hijacking them with non-sequitors and other expository farts. Start with a little restraint and a little respect for your fellow posters, and you’ll get the same back.

Right now, you look like a train wreck just looking for the end of the tracks; pull yourself back a little, and start again.

47

Atheists . Dammit.

48

I suspect that a majority (altough not an overwhelming majority) of posters, here, actually would say that religion has not had a universally good effect on the world. That is an example of your problem when posting here. You really do not know what you’re talking about, and yet you attempt to post as if you are bringing some grand, new revelation to the world.

You keep dodging around the word “troll” in your replies to other posters, but posting things that are done simply to get a rise out of other people is pretty much the definition of trolling. If you actually intend to present genuine points for discussion, then take the time to understand what other people truly believe and address those issues. Attacking beliefs that no one shares (or getting your history wrong) is pretty much an invitation for others to simply slam you for the fun of it, then dismiss you as an ignorant twit.
Your choiuce, of course.

49

Not to speak to the OP (who I think needs some lurking time) let me try to explain why some of us find Christianity unsettling.

Eternal damnation is a bit harsh. It seems the passage quoted allows salvation for good works, but my understanding of most of Christianity, not a tiny minority, is that belief in Jesus is required - necessary but perhaps not sufficient - for salvation.

I understand that as we have matured ethically dumping all heathen into a pit of fire is less appealing, and that some have redefined hell as separation for God and other less horrific scenarios. Yes, today questioning is good, but 1000 years ago only the elect were allowed to even see the Bible, so I’m not sure this has been true throughout history. Just as it is absurd for some evangelical sects to claim that Catholics for the 1500 years before the Reformation were not really representative of the Church, it seems odd to claim that the beliefs of all those considerably closer to Jesus and the Apostles in time than we are didn’t really understand what they are saying. It seems a lot like those who say Genesis is literally true, where literally means a day is a billion years and before means after.

You the ethical majority (in the US? I’m beginning to have my doubts) of Christians know what the characteristics of a God worthy of your worship are, and are willing to interpret the supposed words of that god to match.

There is a GD thread about evidence for God. Maybe the best evidence would not be god rearranging constellations, but God rewriting the Bible so that you don’t need the theological equivalent of a battalion of Philadelphia lawyers to make it seem not the work of a monster. Maybe he’d say he didn’t really mean lake of fire, maybe he’d say he did and tough - he’s god. But at least we wouldn’t have 100 different interpretations of the same “clear” text.

50

What I’ve “heard?” I haven’t “heard” anything-I was raised in the Catholic church, Scott. We were NEVER taught that the Bible was literally true. Hell, I remember the nuns telling us that many parts of the Bible were allegory.

And it’s not for me to prove YOUR case for you.

51

Didn’t the Catholic Church at one time keep the laity from the Bible? I assume this was because the obvious literal reading was wrong and dangerous for those without the proper education. Still, it seems odd that an inspired text would have such problems.

52

I have in fact lurked, and have seen lots of humorous nonsequitors here and there. I also see lots of christians endlessly arguing their points until the other side gets tired and goes home. I am simply doing the other side of the above. I understand that a that a lot of people don’t like the fact that I believe that religion has done more harm than good is inflammatory, and if I decide to go on posting past the date of no-more being a guest, I will thus turn it down a notch.

53

But not nearly enough.

The keyword being humorous. Which you are not; you are annoying. Somebody who’s rude but funny gets a pass (usually). Guess what? No pass for you.

The fact that you believe yourself the sole defender of atheism (got it right that time) leaves me speechless. Ask yourself, **Scott ** - why is it that so few, if any, of the many many atheists on this board are rushing to your aid?

Actually, you understand nothing of why people find you so annoying. As many people have already observed: it ain’t your message, it’s the delivery.

A consumation devoutly to be wished. But it leads one to ask: if you are capable of toning it down at will, why not do it now, when there’s still a chance (albeit slim) to salvage your reputation?

54

I repeat, I have lurked, and now that I think about it, I believe that the fact that there is no search bar accessible to nonmembers is a serious detriment to guests. I’ll bet that many of the arguments I have been posting are valid ones, but given the large post count of many of the people who I have seen posting here, I’ll bet that many of the issues have already been settled.

In my lurking, I have seen some people stating a reason for them not to believe that religion is true, then another person post their own reason, for believing that it is true. Then they go there separate ways. Hmmm. No convincing done, but also not much argument . I think I will go to the very back of the archive to find if this is the way it has always been.

P.S. It is a bad habit, I suppose to keep on suporting my inflamitory statements, but I must say that I have heard the bible say things, and I have heard it taught, but not with the disclaimer that it is not literally true, so in my own experience, I thought that is how it is normally done. Googling there terms did not convince me otherwise. Apparently, at least in modern times, that is not the case.

55

Life must be very interesting for you, with everything *whooshing * by you as it surely must. Enjoy your stay.

56

I have been discussing religion on various boards for thirty years, and the best you can get is to understand someone’s position. You don’t seem to be trying to do that. I assure you that your positions are hardly radical for the Dope.

Your problem is that very few Christian dopers believe in the literally true Bible. Similarly, the only creationists you find here are the drive-by types. Attacking Christianity assuming that Christians are literalists gets you nowhere. Any reading of religion threads would reveal to you that Polycarp and Liberal do not fall into your range of stereotypes.

57

Got it, thanks. In fact I am now reading old threads. I think I will post a verse that has caused me problems in the past in the questions forum, and make the question, “how best to approach this?”

58

Goddamn it . . . why do I always seem to get stuck with the fucktards in my tent? I’m an atheist, and I’m not nearly as much of a moronic fucking jackass as this loser.

This string of obscenities aside, anyway.

The problem with being on a left-leaning, generally non-religious messageboard is that the majority of idiots are on my side too, throwing these little public tantrums.

And andros, I think we can safely assume this one’s below 16. If not, he’s still there mentally. Generally, you grow out of that whole “everyone’s persecuting me” scene after that age.

I always wonder about folks who have so much self-assurance that, upon seeing that everyone else disagrees with them, continue believing that they’re right. When everyone I see disagrees with me on something, I generally decide to consider my own opinion more closely, and try to decide whether I’m right or whether the majority perhaps has a point.

Yeah, cuz this messageboard certainly skews hardcore religious.:rolleyes: Buddy, I think that beliefwise, Christians are probably in the minority here, and fundamentalist ones certainly are. There’s probably fewer Biblical literalists here than you could count on your fingers. The thing is that the atheists here think your arguments are fucking stupid as well. It’s pathetic enough when the lesser lights among the Christians play the persecuted minority card; it’s really sad when it’s someone who’s actually in the majority.

Dude, it’s common fucking knowledge that the Catholic Church endorses evolution, but if you care to look, check the Catholic Encyclopedia - it’s usually one of the first things to come up if you google any Catholicism-related question. The article in there cites Church doctrine; among other things, it makes a strong point about the difference between abiogenesis and evolution (something a lot of fundamentalist Protestants don’t seem to understand.)

But enough about that. I just wanted to point out how obvious it is that you’re arguing something you have zero knowledge of.
What you’ll be unfamiliar with about the SDMB is that, not only are Dopers smarter than most folks you’ll meet waiting at the bus stop, but we’ve also had all these arguments enough times to hone our debating skills, develop stronger rhetorical abilities, and avoid many of the straw men you’re busy wrestling with, as we’re already familiar with the issues at question. Read what we do here and decide if you want to stay. The kind of arguments we have generally require a lot more work than you’re putting into these posts. And yeah, you should expend some of this extra effort on your spelling and grammar. We notice, you see.

59

I was actually thinking in the 18-24 range, in college or just out of it. That seems to be when most people have their “born-again atheist” experiences.

60

Oh, I don’t know. That Wiccan friend of mine had his when he was in his 40’s. Then again, he’s hardly “most people”. After all, how many Fundamentalist Christians-turned-Atheist-turned-Wiccans can there be? :wink:

You know, I don’t like it when Fundamentalists tell me what I *must * believe; I don’t like it when Atheists tell me what I *must * believe; I don’t even like it when my fellow Anglicans tell me what I *must * believe which accounts for a couple of recent posts elsewhere in the Pit. I know people who’ve been profoundly damaged by Christian faith and I’d be willing to bet I’m as angry about that damage as anyone here, maybe more so since it’s my faith we’re talking about. I also know people who’ve been profoundly healed by their Christian faith, including me.

Hey, if **Scott_plaid ** wants to think I’m the worst kind of goat-felching scum to walk the face of the planet because I’ve been known to darken the door of an Episcopal church or talk about my faith on line, so be it. Believe me, I’ve been called worse by Christian and Atheist alike. His views of what I believe because I’m a Christian are no more accurate than a Biblical-literalist, Young Earth Creationist Christians are and they’re less likely to affect me because, unlike the latter, he’s a lot less likely to condemn me or my friend to hell.

On the other hand, Excalibre, you and the rest of the sensible Atheists around here have my sympathies. I know what it feels like to say, “We’re not all like that” and even find myself wishing that maybe the person in question could go over to the other side. Sorry. You can keep this one. I don’t want him! :smiley:

CJ