Shodan, HurricaneDitka, and George Zimmerman: Three Racist Peas in a Racist Pod

[octopus]

@iiandyiiii

So apparently Shodan thinks it’s “arguing based on facts and evidence” to believe that it’s totally fine to refer to some black people by the n-word, and justify this by citing a (long-disavowed and regretted by the comedian) Chris Rock comedy bit. 'Cause that’s why I called him a racist. In case anyone thinks it might be worthwhile to talk with him about any issue related to race.

Sadly, most racists don’t know that they are racist. They think they have good reasons (like a disavowed and regretted comedy bit!?) for various racist assertions. And very rarely are they capable of looking within themselves and realizing this. I suppose there’s a chance that Shodan could become one of these rare individuals… we can always hope.

Maybe you should post that link another 20 times? Truth is Chris Rock did do that comedy routine and probably made millions off of it. Truth is other comedians make race based comedy. It’s not surprising that sometimes other people Knight use the exact same language. Was Chris Rock an evil racist!!11! for the original routine. Of course you will refuse to answer that with a permutation of your own race based reasoning.

[yendis]

@pool

Maybe Zimmerman was racist and profiling, maybe he wasn’t. But his action of shooting a guy bashing his head into concrete is not a racist action it’s survival instinct. I had a sort of reverse situation occur in real life, when I had to pee so badly that I pulled over into this neighborhood on the side of the road, walked down the street and urinated near some bushes. I’m white and a black guy came out of his house and asked what I was doing in his neighborhood and told me to leave. Now it was impossible from the house he came out of that he saw me peeing. I told him the truth but he wouldn’t accept my answer and proceeded to basically chest bump me and tried to physically intimidate me. I had a conceal/carry handgun on my person but I just defused the situation and told him I was leaving even as he was still in my face and even hit my car window as I walked to and got inside my car.

But in this story *you *are in Martin’s position and the other guy is Zimmerman. So if you had defended yourself and he killed you he would be in the right. Well except that he was black and therefore guilty by default in some people’s eyes.

[Little_Nemo]

@yendis

But in this story *you *are in Martin’s position and the other guy is Zimmerman. So if you had defended yourself and he killed you he would be in the right. Well except that he was black and therefore guilty by default in some people’s eyes.

I think that’s the principle at work. For some people, it doesn’t matter what the actual circumstances were. They’ll always believe that the black guy started it and the white guy was just defending himself. Everything else can be adjusted to fit that narrative.

[iiandyiiii]

@octopus

Maybe you should post that link another 20 times? Truth is Chris Rock did do that comedy routine and probably made millions off of it. Truth is other comedians make race based comedy. It’s not surprising that sometimes other people Knight use the exact same language. Was Chris Rock an evil racist!!11! for the original routine. Of course you will refuse to answer that with a permutation of your own race based reasoning.

No, I don’t think Rock is a racist.

Do you agree with Shodan that some black people ought to be referred to as the n word?

[MrDibble]

@Shodan

White guy (okay, half-Hispanic/half-white)

This is not a thing.

[MrDibble]

Chris Rock doesn’t regret the bit becasuse it was he himself being racist, he regrets it because it gave some semblance of plausible deniability to racist shitstains like Shodan.

[Locrian]

@RaftPeople

Outside observer that did not really follow the details of the incident when it happened:
Based on the data that appears to be available (I only read the GD thread and the wiki recap), it seems that nobody knows who started the altercation.

Regardless of either parties past history or activities that night, the altercation could easily have been started by either party.
Not sure why anyone can be so convinced that they know what happened.

This. ^^ Whether or not you followed every part of this case, we will never know who or how this altercation really started. I think Zimmerman is an asshole for thinking confrontation as a neighborhood watch person is entirely stupid. I can’t say he shot Trayvon because he was black. I’d like to THINK so… 'cause, hey, that’d make this easy. But unfortunately, I do not know and will never know what really happened when they started at each other.

What is neighborhood watch? It means a citizen with eyes and ears and quick communication with the police-- the professionals (we hope) in these cases. IOW, it means any grown up with half a brain. You’re no more special than me to report a crime. Zimmerman seems like the type who joined just so he could brag about how great he is. Nevertheless, I don’t know what the hell really happened.

@Heffalump_and_Roo

Along with RaftPeople’s examples, I have a bunch of my own.

A neighbor sees someone shining a flashlight into someone’s window. Stopping to ask why they’re doing that seems more reasonable than watching them continue or waiting to see if he really does break in.

A neighbor sees someone sitting out in the street, talking to someone on the phone. They don’t go in a house. They just sit there, for an hour or more. They get up to go toward an empty house every once in a while.

A neighbor sees someone coming out of someone’s yard. They are unfamiliar with them and don’t see their neighbor that they are familiar with, at the house.
You’re saying that the only option available is to call the police when asking might clarify what’s going on.

I won’t speak for anyone else, but my answer is an absolute yes, call the cops. You remember curiosity (not the Mars droid) and the cat? Someone with a flashlight at the windows of an empty neighbor’s house equals call the cops. NEVER walk over and say, “'Sup, dude?” And that’s for two main reasons: common sense and what happened to Trayvon. Hey, maybe you’re a trained police/military person who would handle this better than me. I’m not, so… 911 it is for me on any of these examples.

So, Babale, I did really love your post. But there are assumptions we unfortunately can’t make. Like I said, Zimmerman is an ass, but how and why and for what reason this happened we don’t know. Do I think he’s racist? Yes. Do I think he should not have confronted Trayvon? Yes. Why he shot Tayvon? I do not know why FOR SURE. All racist reasons are possible, but we can’t just conclude that.

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@Locrian

I won’t speak for anyone else, but my answer is an absolute yes, call the cops. You remember curiosity (not the Mars droid) and the cat? Someone with a flashlight at the windows of an empty neighbor’s house equals call the cops. NEVER walk over and say, “'Sup, dude?” And that’s for two main reasons: common sense and what happened to Trayvon. Hey, maybe you’re a trained police/military person who would handle this better than me. I’m not, so… 911 it is for me on any of these examples.

This actually happened. A neighbor saw a flashlight beam from around my place. He came over to see what was happening. It turned out that I was shining a flashlight to see something in the dark. He didn’t realize I was there. I’m glad he didn’t call the police because I wouldn’t want to deal with them.

The other thing happened too. I saw some young people sitting around the car for a really long time. I hadn’t seen them before. They were probably friends of someone in the area. After watching them for a while, I went over and asked why they were sitting out in the street. They went into the friend’s house after I asked.

Neighborhood watches are organized so that people can group together and ask each other what’s going on instead of calling the police for everything that seems out of place.

[Shodan]

@Locrian

What is neighborhood watch? It means a citizen with eyes and ears and quick communication with the police-- the professionals (we hope) in these cases.

Zimmerman called the non-emergency police dispatcher immediately upon spotting Martin acting (in his opinion) suspiciously. And it was while Zimmerman was trying to find a house number or street address so that he could meet up with the police, who were on their way, when Martin confronted and attacked him.

Hey, maybe you’re a trained police/military person who would handle this better than me. I’m not, so… 911 it is for me on any of these examples.

Same for Zimmerman. Which is why he did what he did.

Regards,
Shodan

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Shodan

There has been discussion on the SDMB that liberals have trouble understanding the motivations of conservatives. The reverse isn’t nearly as true - conservatives and independents are more likely to be able to accurately define what drives liberals. I think that might be what is going on here.

@Also Shodan

White guy (okay, half-Hispanic/half-white) shoots black kid. There is no room in your brain for any explanation except the one - it has to be racist.

Dunning-Krueger is one hell of a drug. What a stupid motherfucker.

[Babale]

@RaftPeople

Counter examples:
1 - Neighbor called the police due to 4 suspicious looking individuals, they broke into the other neighbors house before the police arrived

2 - I spotted some suspicious looking guys walking down the street as I drove past a neighbors house to work. I turned around at the next street and came back to catch them stealing neighbors bike.

3 - Neighbor (older woman) hired a handy man to work on house and my wife and I picked up some odd signals that were tough to identify, something felt off with this person, like manipulative, too friendly, and some other things. We called neighbor’s daughter and mentioned our concerns that he seemed really “suspicious” and to watch out for her stuff. A few days later the cops were at the house, the guy had stolen her car, jewelry and a bunch of tools from the garage.
Ignoring data is not smart. Sure you need to try not to let bias and bigotry influence the process, but that doesn’t mean you ignore all data until someone commits a crime.
fyi: all people in above examples were white, race is not automatically the issue in all cases, but I do have black friends and they tell me about how often they get pulled over, so I get there is a lot of it.

@Heffalump_and_Roo

Along with RaftPeople’s examples, I have a bunch of my own.

A neighbor sees someone shining a flashlight into someone’s window. Stopping to ask why they’re doing that seems more reasonable than watching them continue or waiting to see if he really does break in.

A neighbor sees someone sitting out in the street, talking to someone on the phone. They don’t go in a house. They just sit there, for an hour or more. They get up to go toward an empty house every once in a while.

A neighbor sees someone coming out of someone’s yard. They are unfamiliar with them and don’t see their neighbor that they are familiar with, at the house.
You’re saying that the only option available is to call the police when asking might clarify what’s going on.

@Shodan

Zimmerman called the non-emergency police dispatcher immediately upon spotting Martin acting (in his opinion) suspiciously. And it was while Zimmerman was trying to find a house number or street address so that he could meet up with the police, who were on their way, when Martin confronted and attacked him.Same for Zimmerman. Which is why he did what he did.

Regards,
Shodan

Your whole “Martin doubled back because the dirty black man lusted for white blood” narrative has been debunkeed like 50 time now. Please stop, you’re embarrassing yourself.

[asahi]

@Cheesesteak

I submit this quote for the “no shit, Sherlock” observation of the year.

Yeah, it used to be conservatives would say “I’m not racist, but…”

Now it’s more like “Go ahead, call me a racist. I pretty much am. Har! Har!”

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@Babale

Your whole “Martin doubled back because the dirty black man lusted for white blood” narrative has been debunkeed like 50 time now. Please stop, you’re embarrassing yourself.

That is NOT my narrative. What Martin did or did not do did not cross my mind. I don’t know what happened in that situation. I only have your description to go on.

My only point is that, regardless of race, there are situations where people might ask someone in their neighborhood that they don’t recognize what they’re doing there.

[Babale]

@Heffalump_and_Roo

That is NOT my narrative. What Martin did or did not do did not cross my mind. I don’t know what happened in that situation. I only have your description to go on.

My only point is that, regardless of race, there are situations where people might ask someone in their neighborhood that they don’t recognize what they’re doing there.

Oh gosh, I’m sorry, I did NOT mean to quote you and RaftPeople. Only Shodan. Sorry Heffalump

[Babale]

To respond to your actual point – there are trained professionals whose job it is to respond to reports of suspicious activity. They are called police officers. If you (or, more likely, some asswipe like George Zimmerman) decides to take the law into his own hands, and ends up getting killed, that sounds like a personal problem. If you end up killing an innocent, you should got in jail.

[asahi]

@Heffalump_and_Roo

My only point is that, regardless of race, there are situations where people might ask someone in their neighborhood that they don’t recognize what they’re doing there.

Fair enough.

But regardless, better judgment needs to prevail, and if someone is carrying a lethal weapon, then they need to exercise extremely good judgment. Zimmerman was advised by the 911 dispatcher not to pursue Martin, and there’s a very good reason for that, which was pretty obvious to the dispatcher but apparently not to the guy who, as it turned out, has put himself in dire financial straits even if not officially convicted. Yes, it was legal for Zimmerman to follow Martin, but that isn’t the point as far as I’m concerned.

If someone is in possession of a lethal weapon, if someone possesses lethal force, they have at least a moral/ethical responsibility to exercise good judgment. I don’t know if the confrontation by itself is inherently “racist”, but the language that Zimmerman used in describing his encounter with Martin (“He’s up to no good”, “F*cking punk, etc”) clearly shows that Zimmerman had some pretty strong biases against Martin. If he had seen Martin peeking through the windows of cars or homes, he might have been justified in being biased. But there’s no evidence to suggest anything other than Martin was just an unfamiliar black face walking around in unfamiliar territory.

None of that is to say that Martin was some sort of straight-A student who never found trouble, but that’s really immaterial. Martin was killed as a result of circumstances that were wholly preventable by the person who initiated a confrontation while in possession of a lethal weapon. In a just world, there are consequences that must be paid.

[Knowed_Out]

There’s an episode of blackish that gives a hilarious take on who can say the n-word.

Here’s a sample: https://youtu.be/eUQrwXdw1jw

The whole episode is worth watching, if only to alleviate some white guilt.

[CaptMurdock]

@RaftPeople

Counter examples:
1 - Neighbor called the police due to 4 suspicious looking individuals, they broke into the other neighbors house before the police arrived

2 - I spotted some suspicious looking guys walking down the street as I drove past a neighbors house to work. I turned around at the next street and came back to catch them stealing neighbors bike.

3 - Neighbor (older woman) hired a handy man to work on house and my wife and I picked up some odd signals that were tough to identify, something felt off with this person, like manipulative, too friendly, and some other things. We called neighbor’s daughter and mentioned our concerns that he seemed really “suspicious” and to watch out for her stuff. A few days later the cops were at the house, the guy had stolen her car, jewelry and a bunch of tools from the garage.
Ignoring data is not smart. Sure you need to try not to let bias and bigotry influence the process, but that doesn’t mean you ignore all data until someone commits a crime.
fyi: all people in above examples were white, race is not automatically the issue in all cases, but I do have black friends and they tell me about how often they get pulled over, so I get there is a lot of it.

Swell. In any of the cited cases, did the neighbors note down physical descriptions? Clothing? Vehicles, esp. license numbers? Snap any pics with the oh-so-handy phone cameras that damn near everybody has these days?

Neighborhood Watch means just that. Watch. Not go off like suburban vigilantes. And nobody is asking anybody to “ignore data.” :rolleyes:

[Wolf333]

One of my favorite bits of this whole thing is that Martin gets labeled a thug.

Which one of these two is known to have killed someone and has had several negative interactions with law enforcement?

[octopus]

@iiandyiiii

No, I don’t think Rock is a racist.

Do you agree with Shodan that some black people ought to be referred to as the n word?

It’s funny but obviously not surprising you have that race based double standard on language. With regards to using ugly language? We are in a time where the hysterical Pavlovian response to certain words is so extreme you must be crazy to think I want to discuss something that requires maturity and nuance and honesty in the Pit.

So, in general, I think it’s best not to go through life being needlessly offensive.