Should aggressive human races be banned?

OK, seriously now.

I am somewhat insulted that hazel-rah thought I chose black people in a dog analogy because I somehow associate blacks with dogs. I chose blacks because in the country I live in, some statistics show that blacks are more likely to commit murders. The interpretation given to these statistics IS often biased, misleading, or flat-out wrong. We’re all the same species, the only difference between ‘races’ is appearance. If one arbitrarily decided class of people is killing more people, it’s not because people of a certain color are born more aggressive and prone to violence, it’s because our society makes it more difficult to avoid violence for some of it’s members. Going by statistics alone, you could also say blacks are more likely to have children outside of wedlock, but that was not always the case.

When people are talking about dangerous breeds, there are too many analogies to racism to ignore. Some people have developed prejudices based solely on their personal experiences, what the media shows them, and what others tell them. If they can find statistics that help them, they will use them, if they see something that goes against what they have already decided, they ignore it. Do you think if someone produced a study showing that pit bulls were no more likely than the average dog to harm someone that it would change Cartooniverse’s opinion of pit bulls? That grienspace would back down from his assertion that they are a genetically defective breed of monster-dogs?

You can point out to racists that in societies where racism against blacks is far less prevalent, they are statistically less likely to commit crimes, which seems fairly logical to me, but it won’t matter to them because logic has nothing to do with their feelings. The argument that when pit bulls were not considered a dangerous breed they were considered one of the safest animals to keep as a pet has been used in the ‘Should aggressive dog breeds be banned?’ thread and it was likewise ignored. Racists ignore scientific proof against the idea of races as a biological classification, that if you are going to define someone as a black it’s going to be strictly as a cultural group, and as defined by the person doing the classification. Those prejudiced against pit-bulls ignore the fact that many, if not most of those dogs considered pit-bulls are not purebred dogs, but a mix of many different breeds, people call them pit-bulls because they look like what they consider a pit-bull, and often dogs that show little-to-no resemblance to a true APBT (BTW, if it’s bigger than 55 lbs. it’s probably not a true pit-bull). Hell, for a long time my mental image of a pit-bull was nothing like reality - I imagined them to be giant bulldog-like dogs. I’m betting not many people knew the dog from ‘The Little Rascals’ was a pit-bull until it was pointed out in the thread.

The idea of banning races because of misconceptions and faulty conclusions drawn from flawed statistics is several degrees more offensive than the idea of banning pit-bulls to me, because I happen to place a higher value on human life than animal life - but the fact that it’s a different species we are talking about is the ONLY difference. My arguments for it were all stolen directly from those wanting to exterminate pit-bulls. I DO put some value on animal life, which is why the thread that inspired this disgusted me - in fact, it would disgust me more than if my orignal post in this thread was serious, because I know nobody in their right mind is so misinformed as to support such a disturbing proposal, while a lot (though not most) people who responded in the original thread thought it was at least partially a good idea.

and often dogs that show little-to-no resemblance to a true APBT (BTW, if it’s bigger than 55 lbs. it’s probably not a true pit-bull) was supposed to be followed by are often reported to be pit-bulls when they bite someone.

Your analogy is the faulty one. Cows and dogs are a different species. Pit-bulls are the same species as every other dog. Now, if someone had produced a study showing that white cows with black spots were more likely to attack someone (maybe because their kid was trampled by one) and suggested the killing of all such cows, that would be a bit closer. Yes, cows are not treated the same as humans and are killed all the time. The same is true of all dogs. Would you not consider the ‘Spotted Cow Slaughter’ a waste of life, regardless? Would you not have compassion for people who owned black and white cows and tried to show that the statistics and conclusions drawn from them were biased?

BTW, I never claimed this was a perfect analogy, just a good one. There were a LOT of similarities between the arguments against pit-bulls and some of the racist arguments I have seen before.

FWIW, Badtz, your OP also reminded me of some of the posts in the cruelest race thread, what with the “inherently predisposed to violence” bit and all.

No, it’s not a bad analogy at all, in fact quite good. I thought in poor taste given some other threads on race that have gone on, but your follow up is a good one. Still, might have introduced it a bit differently, esp. for the folks who didn’t know your context.

Good work nonetheless.

Thanks, Collounsbury! That means a lot, coming from you. Though we have clashed before on some topics, I usually ended up learning something and have changed my views on certain topics because of the debates - you obviously know a lot about what you post.

I would recommend that Badtz make a little notice of “I’m being sarcastic with this post” when he decides to post in the future. That being said, I immediately picked up on the “modest proposal” angle, as well as it’s comparison to the recent Pit Bull dealings.

This notion assumes that individuals of a species are as important as the species as a whole, which is ridiculous. This also assumes that those who deliberately kill cows for food do so under the cloud of ignorance, which is also ridiculous (they know damn well what they’re doing).

You might as well have said “Those who want to store books in libraries are the same as book-burners.”

Could you please provide a site to back up this statistic. This is truly frightening. Could it be because blacks own more guns? Or did you get this stat from Mississippi, which has a higher black population. Or is this just a rhetorical attempt to provide a sarcastic analogy for those who have advocated sterilization for the pit bull. For the record Badtz, I do not advocate sterilization for humans, and I am against the death penalty.

Just wondering grienspace but did you bother to read the entire thread? Go back actually read it and you’ll find your answers for everything (except for the cite).

Don’t worry Mighty, your posts as well as all the others were read. I too am being sarcastic.

Invalid argument. The anti-dog advocates never broke down their stats by state or metro area. They presented it as for the US as a whole. If you’re going to ask him to break it down by state and etro area, then the same could be asked of the anti-dog people, of course they would never do so, just as no racist would ever do so.

Well, I rest my case. What is your ethical justification for discriminating between animals on a species by species basis? How is it not analogous to racial discrimination in humans, but discriminating between dogs on a breed by breed basis is? The only basis for differentiation is their usefulness to humans, and that’s hardly ethical.

I don’t understand what you mean here. If I kill all the individuals of a species, it’s OK? As long as I don’t kill the species as a whole?

Nah, that doesn’t quite work. Cattle ranching is a supremely wasteful and inefficient way to grow food. Meat causes all kinds of health problems, as does dairy. Most people who support the practice by eating a lot of meat are not aware of any of this. There is your cloud of ignorance. And I also would mention that ethically, knowing what you are doing and not caring is much worse than not knowing what you are doing.

If you want people to make rational, informed decisions about Pit Bulls, then they’ll have to do the same re: the beef industry and Americans won’t stand for it.

They don’t want to think about it, they just want what they want. This same attitude is surfacing in the Pit Bull discussion, and you won’t be able to get rid of it without widening the scope of your discussion on how we treat all animals.

All the facts and figures in the world about Pit Bulls don’t make a bit of difference, because people are used to just doing what they please with animals, facts be damned.

-fh

Oh dear, I do have rep as an asshole don’t I? ah well, can’t run away from what we are… Anyways, just try to call stuff as I see it.

Oof. I try to only post on something I feel I have real knowledge on. In any case, I’ll just say that folks like you who engage honest diagreesments and are not close minded are what this board is all about. And I have gained new insights on on all kinds of issues from folks like you.

(except cheesmaking.)
Collier

For it to be analogous, you would have to claim that, not only are people with different physical attributes different races, they’re different species! You’re not making that claim, are you? All humans are the same species, no matter what they look like. All dogs are the same species (canis familiaris), no matter if they’re collies, poodles, or pit bulls. Claiming that aggressiveness in dogs is linked to appearance is no different than claiming aggressiveness in humans is linked to appearance.
However, different creatures are different. Tigers, for example, are more aggressive than horses, so it’s okay to treat them differently.

That’s not why the two examples are different. Those who want to get rid of pit bulls want to eliminate all pit bulls for a quality they supposedly have. Those involved with the beef industry agree to killing some cows so they can be used for food. The first example is wrong, the second is merely the food chain in action.

Noone wants to get rid of all the cows! No more cows means no more beef, and obviously the beef industry has no interest in that.

Can you provide any evidence for these claims?

The two situations aren’t the same.

The food industries have nothing to do with the argument as to whether certain dogs should be eliminated solely because of their appearance.

Nope, the only claim I’m making is that they are ethically analogous, which is the crux of Badtz’s original comparison- he was implying that people who want to ban Pit Bulls are like racists, who are ethically reprehensible.

Humans historically have discriminated against other humans on the basis of appearance. They still do, and whether or not races exist, appearance is a heritable trait. The fact that we are all actually of the same species didn’t matter to slaveowners.

They are different, but ethically there is no distinction between tigers and dogs and cows and horses, and that is all that is relevant for my analogy.

And I’m confused. You seem to be asserting that we cannot link a behavioral trait like aggressiveness to an animal’s appearance, yet you have no problem saying tigers are more aggressive than horses. But how are they different except for their appearance?

Sure, you say obviously they’re a different species, but species aren’t a natural distinction that animals inherently have- it’s an arbitrary human classification, just like race. All you’re saying when you claim they’re a different species is “they look really different!”

Ethically speaking, they have a roughly equal ability to reason, both of them feel pain, and both form social ties.

Anyway, certain behaviors in animals are linked to physical traits. Ask any cat fancier.

I’m asking for ethical distinctions. All you are doing is giving me a new description of what the beef industry does.

So Blue people agree to enslaving some Orange people so they can be used for labor. It’s merely human nature in action.

See? You haven’t actually stated any ethical position here.

If you’ll agree to provide evidence that cattle farming is the most sensible and efficient way to feed people given what resources we have, I’ll dig up some cites for my claims. Off the top of my head, E Coli? High cholesterol? High fat content? Heart disease? Lactose intolerance?

Well, if you were God, I guess that would be the end of it.

-fh

Hazel-rah, I understand that you think killing cows is unethical whatever reason you have for killing cows.

The beef-eaters in this thread disagree. Killing cows for food is not analogous with killing dogs because people are being spooked by cooked-up statistics.

Humans are omnivorous. We eat plant and flesh. This is neither right nor wrong, this is nature.

Nota bene:

We have an empirical question here. The underlying genetics are somewhat different. While all dogs are of the same species, they are a more genetically diverse species to begin with. Further, human breeding programs have manipulated trait distribution and may (lack of personal knowledge here, never read about dog genetics) have introduced significant differences between some populations by population.

Ergo, it is possible, indeed likely, that some connection between degree aggressiveness and appearance will have some validity in re dogs. The genetic situation quite simply is different from that of humans. However, as others have adequately pointed out that aggressiveness as understood as violence against humans is at least as much a factor of human handling as genetics.

So, all, please do keep in mind that fine arguments on the genetics of humans may not be applicable to other species with different genetic histories.

They are different in many, many ways. They are different genetically, physiologically and in social behaviour. Their brain chemistry is remarkably different, as is the shape and structure of all areas of the brain. Their metabolisms and energy requirements are completely different along with reproductive strategies and physiology. Their development, both pattern and rate, are different throughout their lifespans. I could go on but I think you should be starting to see the point.
None of those traits vary significantly between human races or between dog breeds.

No, he/she is saying that they are genetically so dissimilar that they can be easily marked as separate groups. This is becoming the new standard for taxonomic separation. As the race thread has established this is not possible for humans. Different species also cannot and or will not interbreed without outside influence and produce viable young. Yes there is considerable debate about the Canis lupus/familiaris complex, as it is being more commonly referred to, but by definition C. familiaris isn’t natural so the definition falls apart. True, species isn’t an entirely natural classification, but then neither is any other classification, including male/female or light/dark. There are always exceptions in biology, but the concept is definable and the classification is definitely not arbitrary. Humans are not genetically separable on the basis of genetics, and will happily interbreed under natural circumstances and produce fertile young.

I’d love to see a cite for that one.

OK, how about:
“Without a doubt most of the worlds rangelands could never support any agricultural system other than grazing and would thus be lost to human agriculture’
Westoboy, M 1979/1980. Elements of a theory of vegetation dynamics in arid rangelands. Israel J. Bot 28:169-94
Or
“Climatic effects dominate both the ecology of the plant community and animal production system. Despite the large impact of grazing on the land, these factors reduce the number of management options available and virtually no other productive use of these lands is possible.”
Wilson, AD and Harrington, GN. 1984 Grazing Ecology and Animal Production. Management of Australia Rangelands. Cmwlth. Govt. Printing Service.
Not only is it the most sensible and efficient, grazing is the ‘only’ way for people to feed themselves across huge areas of Africa and Asia, and for much of the world the only way to obtain any nutrition from its rangelands, and rangelands are very definitely a resource. To say that cattle ranching as an industry is wasteful and inefficient ignores the known facts and displays a huge amount of North American ethno and eco-centricity. Most of the worlds ‘ranches’ exist in areas where the only way to get any nutritional value out of the primary producers of the systems if to pass them through a mobile and self-fuelling fermentation chamber and biomass converter, ie feed the grass and shrubs to a ruminant. If you can tell me a more efficient way to generate edible biomass from in excess of 75% of the worlds rangelends we will both be rich and many people won’t be near as hungry as they are right now.

And not one of those things is an unavoidable consequence of meat production or consumption. To say that meat causes health problems is badly worded. Meat doesn’t ‘cause’ health problems, it contributes to them in combination with lifestyle. I really look forward to seeing an impartial cite stating that meat ‘causes’ any of the problems listed above.
Lactose intolerance is simply an inability of the digestive system to handle lactose. To use this as an argument would require that we also stop using wheat because coeliacs can’t deal with gluten.

I take issue with the OP, who has fallen prey to misconception and, yes, ignorance. It is a misnomer to place the blame for the world’s ills on the agressive races. What about the passive-aggressive, insufferably egotistical, the kind of people who by their very being arouse such teeth-grinding antipathy in thier nieghbors that war becomes simply unavoidable. The intelligent reader will already have surmised that I am speaking of the French.

Why do we tolerate the continuted existence of the French? What contributions to humanity have they made, that might possibly mitigate thier insufferable attitude and hygienic habits? Good Lord, even the Italians can’t stand them!

But wait, I hear you saying, didn’t the French invent oral sex? This is a common misunderstanding. Oral sex was actually invented by an Irishman, who, regretably, was too drunk to remember. The association of oral sex and the French results not from any credit for invention, but for wildly enthusiastic practice.

But isn’t French the language of diplomacy? Well, yes, to some degree, in the sense that it was the French who made most use of sending sophisticated and intelligent men abroad to cringe eloquently in thier behalf. An historical accident, nothing more.

If their diplomatic skills are so superior, why is it then that the normally passive and tolerant Germans rise up every twenty years or so to pound the living snot out of the French? Because they can’t stand them, that’s why. Nobody can, which is why they pose such a threat to stability and international harmony. Americans are not as aware of the odious nature of French culture, of course, the Atlantic has served to quarantine, save, alas, for Quebec.

In a nuclear age, coddling a race as repulsive and arrogant as the French is irresponsible, sooner or later the Germans, or perhaps even the British, will have had that one more honking, nasal put-down, that last supercilious straw. Let’s at least pick the right side this time.