Should all schools be private?

[Human_Action]

@MrDibble

Yes, you are

You seem to need to believe that.

@MrDibble

That’s ridiculous.

What do you think an industry is?

@MrDibble

Educating another generation of upper-caste parasites at the expense of the common man is actually of no value to me. Negative value, even.

Your biases are showing. How is a private-school education at the expense of the common man?

@MrDibble

Did you miss the bit about how it would motivate people in power to actually give a damn about the quality of education for everyone? The goal isn’t to have shitty equal education, the goal is to have great equal education.

Try the democratic process. If you don’t like the job your representatives are doing, vote them out, rather than trying to extort them.

@MrDibble

We need social equality more.

They aren’t mutually exclusive.

@MrDibble

Deliberately lobotomising little Joey with shitty education, so little Jimmy can grow up to be a precious little overeducated flower, is what’s monstrous, and that’s what happens currently.

Is that what you think is happening? Maybe in South Africa, but there’s nothing deliberate about failing schools in the U.S. Also, education is not a zero-sum game, particularly when comparing private and public school students. Jimmy’s private education in no way affects Joey’s; Jimmy’s parents are even paying taxes for a public school system they aren’t using.

@MrDibble

I want my best teachers working with every kind of student.

If you’re going to deny them high-paying jobs and rotate them constantly to evaluate them, expect a rather weak talent pool.

[bldysabba]

[quote=“Left_Hand_of_Dorkness, post:79, topic:657699”]

First, India is so different from us that I’m not convinced we can use India reliably as a case study. Why do you look to their terrible educational system instead of the far superior systems of Taiwan, Japan, or Finland?

Ahem. I’d thank you not to include me in your “we”. Plus, I’d actually argue that India is more like the US (or vice versa) than either Taiwan, Japan or Finland. Two of those three are tiny places(Finland has a population of 5 million!), and all three are ethnically homogeneous. That does make a difference to public spending and oversight. I can cite that if you want. I am of course not saying that the US has governance anywhere close to as bad as India does. So you could, and can, do public schools better than us. I still don’t think you’d be able to do it better than the market.

Second, there are three differences between your educational proposal and most products:
a) The primary consumer isn’t the purchaser.
b) We’ll require all children to consume the product.
c) The price of the product will be fixed.

These three issues mean that different dynamics will play out.

I agree with most of that (except the price being fixed. That’s only true at the lower end of the scale). Education is a more complex product than most, no doubt. Which is why I think sensible regulation will help. Information availability requirements - Performance on tests, reviews by parents, all sorts of things are possible. While some of these can be mandated, we can also expect information to find ways of its own to come up. I have a friend here in India who’s just launched a web product where parents can rate schools.

What sort of results will you expect? Will you say that passing EOGs is sufficient? How will you measure K-2, then–or will you start EOGs in kindergarten? If the only oversight is results-based, cheating will become even more of an issue than it already is, given the incentives.

I think there are a lot more pitfalls here than you’re aware of. Have you discussed your proposal with anyone who’s worked in education and who has expertise in the subject?

I think those are US centric acronyms that I’m not familiar with. There are ways to minimise cheating, especially given how cheap technology is now. It never goes to zero, but you only need it to be at low-ish levels, which I’m pretty confident shouldn’t be insurmountable or particularly expensive.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

[quote=“bldysabba, post:82, topic:657699”]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Ahem. I’d thank you not to include me in your “we”.

:smack: My apologies. Boneheaded move on my part.

I agree with most of that (except the price being fixed. That’s only true at the lower end of the scale).

Yes, but it’s at the lower end of the scale where our educational system suffers most. At the upper end, people are doing just dandy.

I think those are US centric acronyms that I’m not familiar with. There are ways to minimise cheating, especially given how cheap technology is now. It never goes to zero, but you only need it to be at low-ish levels, which I’m pretty confident shouldn’t be insurmountable or particularly expensive.

I’m not nearly so confident as you are. As anti-cheating technology advances, pro-cheating tech will also advance. The worry isn’t about students cheating, but about administrators cheating, as several scandals in the US have shown recently. The more that pressure is put on schools to perform well on high-stakes tests, the more people will succumb to the temptation to cheat. And if you replace the relatively centralized public school system with a cacophony of private schools, cheating will become much harder to monitor.

[bldysabba]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

:smack: My apologies. Boneheaded move on my part.

No worries, it happens to me often Especially since I think I’m arguing points that many people on the board take to be US right wing thinking. I’m not coming from that perspective though. I’m actually coming from one that has seen how ridiculously easy it is for government to go wrong, and then how incredibly difficult it is to fix those mistakes. All you need is unscrupulous politicians willing to promise a lot with public money, and then you go many decades because any move in the opposite direction is just seen as anti-poor, regardless of how badly direct methods to ‘help’ the poor fail and keep on failing. Markets can and do go wrong, but those errors are far quicker to fix, all the more so because the government isn’t a participating entity but the regulating one.

Yes, but it’s at the lower end of the scale where our educational system suffers most. At the upper end, people are doing just dandy.

I’ve worked(and still work, although now I’m in research) in the development sector. I have seen the very poor and lived among them. I don’t claim this alone gives me special insight, but I’m not unfeeling of the predicaments of the poor. It’s very sobering to watch how the best government intentions get subverted. And while some of that is definitely good/bad policy, a lot of it is more fundamental.

I’m not nearly so confident as you are. As anti-cheating technology advances, pro-cheating tech will also advance. The worry isn’t about students cheating, but about administrators cheating, as several scandals in the US have shown recently. The more that pressure is put on schools to perform well on high-stakes tests, the more people will succumb to the temptation to cheat. And if you replace the relatively centralized public school system with a cacophony of private schools, cheating will become much harder to monitor.

I’m not confident that left to itself cheating will sort it out. It could happen on its own(it does - reputations are important and for profit institutions understand that as well as any other, perhaps better), but I wouldn’t be confident. I am confident however that it’s not an unsolvable problem, nor do I think it will be very expensive to solve.

[Der_Trihs]

@Human_Action

Is that what you think is happening? Maybe in South Africa, but there’s nothing deliberate about failing schools in the U.S.

Sure there is. The Right goes out of its way to sabotage public education at every turn because they think it shouldn’t exist.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Der_Trihs

Sure there is. The Right goes out of its way to sabotage public education at every turn because they think it shouldn’t exist.

Then please show me some specific examples of prominent politician deliberately trying to sabotage schools.

Note, putting in place policies that they honestly think will make the school better but don’t doesn’t count as sabotage.

Anyway, if what you’re saying is true, then it should be exceedingly easy of you to provide the appropriate cites.

Thank you in advance.

[MrDibble]

@Human_Action

You seem to need to believe that.

When you apply the language of economics to human children, you provide me with ample evidence for my belief.

What do you think an industry is?

Human activity that produces tangible goods.

Your biases are showing. How is a private-school education at the expense of the common man?

It provides a separate system for the wealthy and powerful to educate their own, leaving no incentive for them to change the status quo. It promotes class warfare, essentially.

Try the democratic process.

Were you under the impression I advocated revolutionary overthrow of government to change the school system?

If you don’t like the job your representatives are doing, vote them out, rather than trying to extort them.

That you see it as extorting (more language of capital,) rather than levelling the playing fields, is telling. And how do we provide disincentive to the new representatives? And what about those of the wealthy and powerful who aren’t elected officials?

They aren’t mutually exclusive.

Didn’t say they were - but priorities matter

Is that what you think is happening? Maybe in South Africa, but there’s nothing deliberate about failing schools in the U.S.

I disagree. Perpetrating an unequal system when you know it’s unequal, is a deliberate act.

Also, education is not a zero-sum game, particularly when comparing private and public school students.

So they draw from separate pools of teachers and administrators? And the government provides zero funding for private schools in the US? So what are these vouchers I keep hearing about? And these charter schools?

Jimmy’s private education in no way affects Joey’s; Jimmy’s parents are even paying taxes for a public school system they aren’t using.

They derive the benefits of the education of those who do use the public system, so they are “using” it.

If you’re going to deny them high-paying jobs and rotate them constantly to evaluate them, expect a rather weak talent pool.

Like the military, is that also a weak talent pool?

And what high-paying jobs are you denying them? As the Indian example shows, private schooling can drive the pay of teachers way down, because of market forces. Public systems provide more security and certainty, and that’s attractive to a lot of people. You seem to buy into some sort of myth that the most avaricious, driven people are necessarily the most proficient. That’s bunk - lots of talented people teach because its what they want to do, not for the big bucks.

[bldysabba]

@MrDibble

And what high-paying jobs are you denying them? As the Indian example shows, private schooling can drive the pay of teachers way down, because of market forces. Public systems provide more security and certainty, and that’s attractive to a lot of people. You seem to buy into some sort of myth that the most avaricious, driven people are necessarily the most proficient. That’s bunk - lots of talented people teach because its what they want to do, not for the big bucks.

Wow. I’ve never had anybody take away that sort of interpretation from the Indian example. Also, some talented people may teach because it’s what they want to do, but it’s no myth that most talent follows personal gain. If that weren’t true, the Indian system(and the Soviet one, and the Chinese one) would have worked, not caused more misery to more people than any other system tried before. If it weren’t true, the USA would not be the most desirable country for immigrants from all over the world. Immigrants who’re typically among the most motivated and talented people in their country, might I add.

[MrDibble]

@bldysabba

Wow. I’ve never had anybody take away that sort of interpretation from the Indian example.

It’s fairly obvious that a free market for education opens up the workers (teachers) to exploitation by capital, just like any other industry. Without protection for workers, it’s a race to the minimum-wage bottom. It was nice of you to provide the numbers showing how enormous the disparity is, though.

Also, some talented people may teach because it’s what they want to do, but it’s no myth that most talent follows personal gain.

I said it’s a myth that the most avaricious are the most talented. I’ve no doubt some talent follows personal gain, but I’d need a cite for the “most”.

[Der_Trihs]

@bldysabba

Also, some talented people may teach because it’s what they want to do, but it’s no myth that most talent follows personal gain.

That’s not true at all. Our system is largely based on the fact that the most talented people are not the most motivated by personal gain; the people who are most motivated by gain and who make the most profits are those who leech off of those talented people. If the most talented people really were motivated by personal gain at the very least there’d be a drastic change in our wage structure, as those talented people demanded more money, or if they didn’t get it quit for less strenuous jobs that paid the same.

[Human_Action]

@Der_Trihs

Sure there is. The Right goes out of its way to sabotage public education at every turn because they think it shouldn’t exist.

Any candidate who ran on a platform of ending public education in any district would lose, badly. Have any done so?

If it’s the Right that’s sabotaging public education, what of school districts in heavily Democratic areas? For a start, the Los Angeles Unified School District has an appalling 34% dropout rate, 23 of the state’s 39 worst schools, and " a reputation for extremely crowded schools with large class sizes, high drop-out and expulsion rates, low academic performance in many schools, poor maintenance and incompetent administration."

Chicago Public Schools (CPS) has a sterling 39.4% dropout rate. Here’s an article on its half-century of terrible, terrible schooling.

[Human_Action]

@MrDibble

When you apply the language of economics to human children, you provide me with ample evidence for my belief.

The language of economics is applicable to most human activity, because most human activity is comprised of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

@MrDibble

Human activity that produces tangible goods.

Nope. The NFL, for instance, makes vast sums by selling tickets to games, and advertising time to advertisers. No tangible goods. Are sports an industry? Absolutely.

@MrDibble

It provides a separate system for the wealthy and powerful to educate their own, leaving no incentive for them to change the status quo. It promotes class warfare, essentially.

@MrDibble

Were you under the impression I advocated revolutionary overthrow of government to change the school system?

That you see it as extorting (more language of capital,) rather than levelling the playing fields, is telling. And how do we provide disincentive to the new representatives?

Coercion is obtaining money, property, or services through extortion. Your plan calls for obtaining better schools through coercion. Extortion is exactly what it is, and senseless extortion in a democracy.

If you have the electoral power to install leaders who will turn every school into a thriving success, why do you also need to undermine the education of every person whose parents would rather send them to public school? Are you actually interested in incentivizing leaders, or just making sure people don’t get too good of an education?

@MrDibble

And what about those of the wealthy and powerful who aren’t elected officials?

What of them? They want what’s best for their children, just like everyone else. If you outlaw private schools, they’d likely just send their children abroad for schooling. No law is going to make a parent who cares not do everything they can to provide for their children’s future.

@MrDibble

I disagree. Perpetrating an unequal system when you know it’s unequal, is a deliberate act.

The actual barrier to school reform isn’t connected to private schools at all, it’s teacher’s unions, administrators, and uncaring parents. The system isn’t being perpetuated by rich people in smoke-filled backrooms who have no incentive to sabotage public education.

@MrDibble

So they draw from separate pools of teachers and administrators? And the government provides zero funding for private schools in the US? So what are these vouchers I keep hearing about? And these charter schools?

There is no upper limit on the supply of teachers or administrators. The supply will match the demand.

You aren’t talking about voucher programs, you’re talking about eliminating all private schools.

@MrDibble

They derive the benefits of the education of those who do use the public system, so they are “using” it.

And paying for it. And those educated privately provide the same benefit to society.

@MrDibble

Like the military, is that also a weak talent pool?

Yes. Lower standards help Army meet recruiting goal.

@MrDibble

And what high-paying jobs are you denying them?

Any job that pays more than what they could earn under your fixed scale. You’re creating a monopsony, one buyer for teachers, which means the government dictates wages for the entire industry.

@MrDibble

As the Indian example shows, private schooling can drive the pay of teachers way down, because of market forces. Public systems provide more security and certainty, and that’s attractive to a lot of people. You seem to buy into some sort of myth that the most avaricious, driven people are necessarily the most proficient. That’s bunk - lots of talented people teach because its what they want to do, not for the big bucks.

You’re narrowing your talent pool still further, here.

[MrDibble]

@Human_Action

The language of economics is applicable to most human activity, because most human activity is comprised of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

…in your capitalist view.

Nope. The NFL, for instance, makes vast sums by selling tickets to games, and advertising time to advertisers. No tangible goods. Are sports an industry? Absolutely.

Nope. Sports supports many industries (equipment manufacture, construction, hot dog making) but is not, itself, an industry.

Coercion is obtaining money, property, or services through extortion.

It’s not extortion if it uses the legal process.

Your plan calls for obtaining better schools through coercion. Extortion is exactly what it is, and senseless extortion in a democracy.

How is it senseless to have the machinery of state do its damn job.

If you have the electoral power to install leaders who will turn every school into a thriving success, why do you also need to undermine the education of every person whose parents would rather send them to public school?

Like I said - breaking down class barriers is the gaol.

Are you actually interested in incentivizing leaders, or just making sure people don’t get too good of an education?

:rolleyes: Can’t I have both?

What of them? They want what’s best for their children, just like everyone else. If you outlaw private schools, they’d likely just send their children abroad for schooling. No law is going to make a parent who cares not do everything they can to provide for their children’s future.

That they would rather send their own kids away rather than help improve their own society, is all the hint I need that they aren’t really people I’d want to have around, anyway. They can get what’s best for their kids - by fixing the existing system rather than just going “Fuck you, I got mine”

The actual barrier to school reform isn’t connected to private schools at all, it’s teacher’s unions, administrators, and uncaring parents. The system isn’t being perpetuated by rich people in smoke-filled backrooms who have no incentive to sabotage public education.

They have every incentive - how valuable is that tony private school education if the street sweeper’s kid can get the same education for free? They have an interest in reinforcing class boundaries, and they act on that interest, every time they lobby against teacher’s unions, every time they vote funding for the military rather than education…

There is no upper limit on the supply of teachers or administrators. The supply will match the demand.

Don’t be ridiculous, of course there’s an upper limit.

You aren’t talking about voucher programs, you’re talking about eliminating all private schools.

Yes, and all non-state avenues of education.

And paying for it. And those educated privately provide the same benefit to society.

Sometimes. Mostly, they’re parasites, IMO.

Yes. Lower standards help Army meet recruiting goal.

So the US military must be in a complete shambles, then. perhaps it should be opened up to competition…

Any job that pays more than what they could earn under your fixed scale.

Nope. Just any school teaching job.

You’re creating a monopsony, one buyer for teachers, which means the government dictates wages for the entire industry.

Yes. Again, as the Indian example shows, that’s to teachers’ benefit.

You’re narrowing your talent pool still further, here.

By offering job security? How so?

[Lightnin]

@XT

You could have a private school system where the federal government (or even the states) set the criteria and enforce the regulations and standards, where the private corporations contracted by the government to run the schools have incentive based criteria they have to meet, and where the poor can send their kids to school in much the same way the poor get food and other government assistance.

Would the government also force these private corporations to maintain private schools in non-profitable areas? One problem facing the inner-city poor right now is that they usually have to shop at the local 7-11, because it’s simply not profitable for the good grocery stores to maintain a presence in those areas. As a result, the inner-city poor have to buy lower-quality food for higher prices than folk out in the 'burbs.

[MrDibble]

@Human_Action

Yes. Lower standards help Army meet recruiting goal.

BTW, it seems from that article that a lot of the standards lowered there were moral ones, which doesn’t really reflect on competence or ability, IMO.

[even_sven]

This idea that US schools are uniquely terrible simply isn’t true. We are smack in the middle of the pack of developed countries, and in many cases the differences between us and others is not statistically significant. Furthermore, our “good” and even “average” public schools are perfectly competitive. It’s only our worst schools that are worth worrying about.

And this is true in most of our lives. I grew up in a poverty-line family and attended a poorly rated neighborhood school with an 80% free lunch rate. I still was able to go to a very good public university, and a top graduate school. That’s a pretty common story.

The real achievement problem in America is poverty, That is what is most strongly correlated with future outcomes, and the US has appalling child poverty rates. If we want to improve schools, that is where to start.

And for goodness sake, India is not America. India is undergoing a massive transformation and there are literally millions of educated people striving to reach the middle class for whom economic development still hasn’t caught up- it’d be impossible NOT to make changes that lower wages with that kind of labor pool. The US doesn’t have that. Despite the economic difficulties, most Americans have lots of options when it comes to making a decent middle class living, and few of us are really striving for the “scraping the bottom of the middle class” standard of living that is currently still aspiration for a lot of educated Indians.

[Human_Action]

@MrDibble

…in your capitalist view.

Or in a historical view. Acquiring food, water, and shelter always have been and always will be the primarily activities of human beings, and they are economic activities.

@MrDibble

Nope. Sports supports many industries (equipment manufacture, construction, hot dog making) but is not, itself, an industry.

So, we have sports leagues taking in billions of dollars a year…if they are not an industry, what are they?

@MrDibble

It’s not extortion if it uses the legal process.

The legal process that you already control democratically? This is like saying we need to poison representatives before they vote on a bill and promise them the antidote if they vote your way. Why not just vote for representatives who see things your way in the first place?

@MrDibble

How is it senseless to have the machinery of state do its damn job.

Because there’s a massive logical disconnect between improving public schools and outlawing private ones. Shuttering private schools will do absolutely nothing to improve public ones.

@MrDibble

Like I said - breaking down class barriers is the gaol.

You’d rather everyone got the same bad education than for anyone to get an excellent one?

@MrDibble

:rolleyes: Can’t I have both?

Not in this way, no. You have two entirely separate goals here that you’re trying to achieve with one plan.

@MrDibble

That they would rather send their own kids away rather than help improve their own society, is all the hint I need that they aren’t really people I’d want to have around, anyway. They can get what’s best for their kids - by fixing the existing system rather than just going “Fuck you, I got mine”

So, what exactly is a wealthy private citizen supposed to do to fix his country’s public schools?

@MrDibble

They have every incentive - how valuable is that tony private school education if the street sweeper’s kid can get the same education for free? They have an interest in reinforcing class boundaries, and they act on that interest, every time they lobby against teacher’s unions, every time they vote funding for the military rather than education…

Teacher’s unions are incredibly powerful in the U.S., and their incentive is to fight for better pay and security for themselves, rather than the quality of the education they are delivering. And it shows in the results we get. The fact that you view teacher’s unions as they presently are as part of the solution instead of part of the problem indicates how far-out you are on this topic.

@MrDibble

Don’t be ridiculous, of course there’s an upper limit.

The fourth-most common major in US colleges and universities is education. We can produce as many teachers as we need, it doesn’t demand some rare trait or genius intellect, it’s just a profession.

@MrDibble

Sometimes. Mostly, they’re parasites, IMO.

And this absurd bias clearly informs your thinking on this matter.

@MrDibble

So the US military must be in a complete shambles, then. perhaps it should be opened up to competition…

It is well on the way to shambles, yes. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan will help, as the military can then reduce in size. Unlike education, there’s no set demand for soldiers like there is for teachers.

@MrDibble

Nope. Just any school teaching job.

…Right, which is denying them high-paying jobs.

@MrDibble

Yes. Again, as the Indian example shows, that’s to teachers’ benefit.

Then why prohibit private schools? If teachers do better in a public system, then a public system would attract the best teachers regardless of whether private schools also existed.

@MrDibble

By offering job security? How so?

Reread that paragraph. “Lots of talented people teach because its what they want to do, not for the big bucks” = “We aren’t paying much”. If people aren’t motivated by money, why would you pay them well?

[Human_Action]

@MrDibble

BTW, it seems from that article that a lot of the standards lowered there were moral ones, which doesn’t really reflect on competence or ability, IMO.

The Army doubled the number of recruits it permitted to score on the low end of its aptitude test, and started taking more recruits with criminal records and histories of drug and alcohol abuse. That is what a thin talent pool looks like.

[Kearsen]

@Chimera

Of course it is. Now imagine how much worse it would be if ALL education was ‘for profit’.

“Little Timmy never got to learn Math. We just couldn’t afford it. It was all we could do to pay for him to learn how to read and write.”

You just don’t think that anyone anywhere would offer services for reduced costs…?

[even_sven]

This idea that US schools are uniquely terrible simply isn’t true. We are smack in the middle of the pack of developed countries, and in many cases the differences between us and others is not statistically significant. Furthermore, our “good” and even “average” public schools are perfectly competitive. It’s only our worst schools that are worth worrying about.

And this is true in most of our lives. I grew up in a poverty-line family and attended a poorly rated neighborhood school with an 80% free lunch rate. I still was able to go to a very good public university, and a top graduate school. That’s a pretty common story.

The real achievement problem in America is poverty, That is what is most strongly correlated with future outcomes, and the US has appalling child poverty rates. If we want to improve schools, that is where to start.

And for goodness sake, India is not America. India is undergoing a massive transformation and there are literally millions of educated people striving to reach the middle class for whom economic development still hasn’t caught up- it’d be impossible NOT to make changes that lower wages with that kind of labor pool. The US doesn’t have that. Despite the economic difficulties, most Americans have lots of options when it comes to making a decent middle class living, and few of us are really striving for the “scraping the bottom of the middle class” standard of living that is currently still aspiration for a lot of educated Indians.