No, what I asked for is “He gave ten-year-old indigenous children to his men to be rape toys.”
if you had said “He allowed his men to rape native women” I wouldnt have asked for a cite.
But that doesnt have the same baggage as “He gave ten-year-old indigenous children to his men to be rape toys.” now does it?
“He gave ten-year-old indigenous children to his men to be rape toys.” vs “He allowed his men to rape native women”.
See?
That’s why I asked for a cite, *and you didnt have one. *
We celebrate Washington’s Birthday.
He kept slaves, didnt he?
Name a country that isn’t settled by the descendants of a group that stole it from someone else? What about areas that didn’t have some form of slavery in the past or even present? I don’t know why people apologize and wring their hands over natural survival of the fittest. Aren’t we all Darwinists here?
Presidents Day has replaced it as an official holiday.
Well, some of us understand what Darwinism is…and some don’t, it looks like.
wrong:
Columbus gave the girl to his lieutenant to be a sex slave. The lieutenant said “the admiral gave her to me”.
Pretend, if you want, that that’s not evidence that Columbus gave native girls to his men to be sex slaves, but I won’t.
Oh boy, I had no idea. However, in my defense:
Assuming you’re not joking here, accepting evolution as scientific fact says nothing about one’s morality and how one morally evaluates “survival of the fittest” in a human sense. Evolution is a fact and “survival of the fittest” is a monstrous philosophy when it comes to human behavior.
The very piece that he cited said “When I was in the boat, I took a beautiful Cannibal girl and [Columbus] gave her to me.”
Actually, of la raza hispana… it’s raza in the old meaning of culture, not biological ancestry.
Oh right. He did hit South America didn’t he?
What I’m saying is why is there no hand wringing that random tribe A overran random tribe B? Do the Crow Indians have guilt over the tribes they displaced? How about the Aztecs? Do the Germanic tribes have guilt over the people they pushed out the way? How about the Han in China?
And why is “survival of the fittest” monstrous? You state that conclusion like a fact. Well what else is there? First of all what is meant by fit? Hmm. In my point of view, fit means you survived and reproduced. That’s what biological fitness means.
If we live in a world that is deterministic, human behavior is governed by what exactly?
Who here is advocating guilt or “hand wringing”? I’m fine with talking about all those things if they are accurate. Talking about them and acknowledging them is not “guilt” or “hand-wringing”.
Humans govern human behavior – morality is a human concept. But this is way beyond the scope of this thread – if you really want to talk about it, then I suggest you start one (or go back into one of the many other threads on the topic).
octopus:
Iceland. Maybe Norway and Sweden as well, not 100% sure. Probably also the countries of the Arabian Peninsula.
It’s not really your past, though, is it? Columbus had been dead and buried a few centuries before the US even existed.
I’m from Spain. It’s more like MY past. And we are also quite uneasy with the man. The other day a few council members from Barcelona’s City Hall asked to take down Columbus statue. And that’s like NY taking down Lady Liberty!
Personally, I’m all for keeping Columbus’ figure. I just don’t want whitewashing. "Here’s Columbus, kids. He once discovered the American continent by accident. Among other noteworthy things him and his men hunted down and exterminated the Haiti natives, the Arawaks. 250.000 people.
And it’s not really that he wasn’t considered a bastard even by that time’s standards- most of our knowledge from that time comes from the writings of a priest named Bartolomé de las Casas, who was appalled by the actions of his countrymen.
Yes, he is worth celebrating. The colonization of the Americas by Europeans is hugely important to the way the world is today. The mass movement of tribes and peoples to other lands by conquest, emigration, whatever, is the pattern of history. The Native Americans aren’t special in having their land taken from them, it happened in Europe too when the Germanic tribes swept across the continent from the forests of the North and established their own kingdoms on the ruins of the Roman Empire. It has always been the way of the world.
If European Americans feel so guilty and ashamed then give the damn land back and come back to Europe, although we won’t have room for all of you. Maybe some of you could settle in Antarctica, that’s empty. You’d freeze but at least you’d feel virtuous.
All that can be celebrated without celebrating someone who gave child rape slaves to his lieutenants.
What does any of this have to do with guilt and shame? I think Columbus was a monster and I don’t think we should celebrate him. I feel no guilt or shame for my ancestry whatsoever, and I don’t think anyone should feel guilt or shame for their ancestry, ethnicity, or anything they were born with.
Your first sentence doesn’t match the rest of the post. If all that is true, “Should America Celebrate Columbus Day” isn’t really answered. Columbus perhaps had a role in the colonization of the Americas by Europeans. Good or bad, I’d agree that’s important. So, he needs a day? I don’t get it. Winning WWII was hugely important as well, but we’re only 80 years out and we don’t even celebrate V-E or V-J day anymore. Walking on the moon was pretty important, but no day set aside. Invention of electricity, no day. Etc. etc.
The OP didn’t ask if Columbus was important. He didn’t ask if he was a great man. e asked if we should celebrate Columbus Day. Personally, I don’t see the point.
Yep. Another example of a poor person to celebrate.