The Five Eyes is an intel-sharing group: Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States.
Why should Canada be sharing national security intel with the United States, the country that now poses the greatest threat to our national security and sovereignty ?
It shouldn’t. I love my country but I’m afraid for it.
What benefit is there for Canada to share intel with a hostile nation?
Canada should treat the USA under Trump as the leakiest of all possible wicker baskets when it comes to information security.
Trump proved that previously, and has directed economic and political threats at Canada above and beyond the risk of leaks!
And I say that as a USAian.
To be honest, I’ve just assumed that sharing intel with the U.S. was already being curtailed. Those countries know who is about to be in charge of our intelligence agencies and the incompetence and corruption that will follow. Maybe the four of them should band together and kick the U.S. out. They actually have common ground to trust each other. It’s not going to help any of those countries to keep the U.S. in the loop. They can’t trust what they get from the U.S. or that intel they share will be safe. I wouldn’t blame them at all. Hell, with the America Only idiots in charge here, they more than likely wouldn’t trust any intel they got anyway, even as disaster unfolded in front of them. And to top it off, they would withhold intel if Trump was pissed off at a country for any reason. There is no upside to keeping the U.S. in Five Eyes. But Canada should stay with the others to keep your country safe, possibly from Trump.
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Am sympathetic to your cause, but think you might be better served as founding member of the newly Four Eyes group, rather than going it alone with a hostile neighbouring state in close proximity.
Would the other three dump the US though? They don’t face the same risk, having oceans to protect them from the US.
They should kick out the USA.
Not just because of Trump’s hostility to Canada, but because you can’t trust Trump with intel.
I guess I was assuming that your common connection with Great Britain would count for something in your banding together. Do you think any of the others trust the U.S.?
True, but Australia’s relationship with China is much different to the US.
We have a trade surplus with PRC.
We are currently being kicked in the balance of payment ghoulies with all manner of quota and non-tariff barriers as a surrogate for the US and our position in the US sphere. It’d be worth billions if that relationship was uncoupled. Then there is all those sticks, stones and other incumbrancers the US throws at the free-trade Cairns Group via the US Farm Bill, Export Enhancement Program and it’s other agro-corporate welfare programs.
And then there’s that really nice surveillance facility at Pine Gap and our own Jindalee “over the horizon” radar system.
The only fly in the ointment is this stuff represents decades long carefully cultivated strategies and relationships. Much more significant than a 3 year blip of unsustainable and counterproductive posturing.
I’m torn on this one.
It would be easy to say Yes, but it must be remembered that the US and Canada participate in North American defense together, through NORAD. There are, and have been since the founding of NORAD, USAF personnel in North Bay, Ontario; and RCAF personnel in Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado. North American defense is integrated, in other words, including intelligence. Denying the US the other four’s intelligence might make the US listen to reason, but it would cripple NORAD, which is important to Canada, in the short term.
It would be equally easy to say No. Not only for the above reason, but also because it could be argued that the US is not a hostile nation. Not yet, anyway, and perhaps not ever. Who is hostile to Canada is the US’s president, who got some idea in his head the other day, and as is his wont, started blathering about it. When it got some traction among his supporters, he kept on with it. He really has no idea what threatening Canada entails, and I’m not speaking militarily. It has to do with the countless number of mutually-beneficial treaties between the US and Canada that cannot be waved away with the stroke of a pen on an Executive Order. So, quitting Five Eyes might put those treaties in jeopardy somewhere down the line. Not necessarily immediately, but as far as I know, they all have exit clauses that can be invoked upon proper notice.
I’d suggest that Canada sit tight for now, and see what develops. Quick snap decisions based on gut feeling and incomplete information are Mr. Trump’s specialty. Careful decisions based on all available information observed over time are ours. Let’s use our approach to our advantage, and discuss among ourselves how best to address Mr. Trump’s posturings.
I think the US now is a hostile nation. The president has adopted a policy of forcibly annexing Canada. He’s got a Congress that rolls over for whatever he asks. The US now posed a tremendous threat to Canadian sovereignty.
Lots of people in the 1930s thought that Herr Hitler was just blathering when he spoke of lebensraum.
Canada can’t afford to make that mistake with Herr Trump and annexation.
I would have to agree that, as quickly but as quietly as possible, Canada needs to treat the US as a threat. Trump ordering an invasion is absolutely a possibility - it’ll take a little while for them to put a plan together - but it could happen, probably using a bullshit provocation excuse like “oh, they hiked our electricity price” or some imaginary border incident.
As we see on the SDMB, the US population will stumble along with him without much objection, so it’s a real threat and sharing intel with them right now is nuts.
Let’s also remember that Trump wants to install a Russian asset as the Director of National Intelligence, so if you think the administration was leaky last time, hold onto your hat!
Yeah, if Tulsi Gabbard is confirmed, the remaining Four Eyes absolutely need to either boot the US out, or agree behind the scenes not to actually share anything sensitive through the Five Eyes structures (which is basically the same thing).
During the Cuban Missile Crisis, when the US military went to DEFCON 3, the Canadian prime minister, Conservative John Diefenbaker refused to move Canada to a similar readiness state. After the crisis, he learned that the Canadian military raised itself to the higher readiness against his instructions. Dief the Chief was not amused.
In the 1960s, the Canadian security services (under the RCMP) gave information on student radicals in Canada to the CIA, though they and the CIA knew that was the FBI’s brief.
My point is, would Canadian intelligence services observe instructions to freeze out the US? Or would their longstanding connections, personal and professional, and their professional judgement, push them to circumvent the intentions of the government?
But this is perhaps too arcane and removed. Likely the Four Eyes get more from the US than they supply to the US, and so any Canadian government might be loath to cut off its nose to spite its face.
So I would be very surprised if Canada seriously reconsidered membership in the Five Eyes. Of course, these days, I am often very surprised.
I don’t know enough about the intelligence Canada gets or gives to make a fair judgement.
Trump is one person. Though he may have enablers, many disagree with his views. I don’t think it is accurate to view the United States as hostile. It is true tariffs are of concern, and Canada cannot perhaps always rely on the United States to do what it wants. Yes, Canada should become more independent. Trump’s stupid jokes are beyond the pale but do not merit overreaction yet.
This might mean investing in the military. My limited understanding is that Canada’s intelligence agencies have limited ability to spy on other countries. If this is so, and proper and reliable oversight can be established and maintained, perhaps more investment is needed. In theory, more eyes are better than few, so without more reason, on the face of it, Canada would probably not be better off if it left Five Eyes. How would this make Canada more secure? But should do more ourselves? Yes.
Much like the situation within the US intelligence services and the US DoD, everyone working within the Five Eyes framework is having to confront the reality that certain absolute bedrock lifetime assumptions are crumbling in days before their very eyes.
I’ll suggest that the MAGAphile contingent in the Canadian government will try to slow roll or circumvent any backing away from the USA ordered from on high. Everybody else will be more like our OP here: astonished, appalled, and repelled by what they see going on Down South, but resolute in their patriotism (not jingoism) for Canada.
The sizes of the MAGAphile contingent in the Pentagon, the CIA, and the various Canadian government departments will determine how much or how badly the criminal trump regime can carry out its worst impulses.
Every nation keeps some (most) secrets to itself. Canada will surely review its policies about what to share and not share. That is irrespective of long term agreements.