Yeah, that’s my takeaway from his post: we craaaaaazy libruls think that threatening to drug and rape people is bad. What next, forced labor camps?
I think the point is that nobody could reasonably believe that these guys were actually threatening to do that. They were acting immature and in poor taste.
It’s sort of like the “I’m going to kill you” said in a joking manner to friends and family members, usually in response to a joke at one’s expense. You can’t call that a threat to murder.
Dr Huxtable?
The question then becomes whether making jokes like this about colleagues (fellow students, to be specific) is compatible with a professional code of ethics that requires good character, and whether doing it in a group that claims affiliation with the university, however oblique, is consistent with the student code of conduct.
Marshmallow’s insinuation isn’t that we don’t know it’s joking; it’s that we dislike it because it violates a political orthodoxy. I’m unaware of any competing political orthodoxy that thinks joking about drugging and raping colleagues is compatible with good character, but perhaps marshmallow can enlighten me.
Yes, they should be expelled, and I don’t think it’s too harsh.
Each member of a profession embodies that profession. They are the public face of that profession, and the profession is judged by their actions and reputation. If they behave well, it builds public trust in that profession and all of its members, but if they behave poorly, it destroys public trust in that profession, and all members of the profession suffer because they are seen to be less competent or trustworthy.
Let’s examine the actions of these aspiring dentists in this context. A visit to the dentist requires an enormous amount of trust. You put your bodily integrity in their hands-- you trust them to identify which procedures need to be performed and to carry them out well; you trust them not to perform unnecessary procedures; depending on the severity of the procedures, you might be putting your life in their hands. If you have to be put under general anesthetic, you’re basically trusting everything to them from the time you go under until the time you wake up.
Now, let’s examine the Facebook comments in that context. It’s not inappropriate to do so-- they did title their group “Class of DDS 2015 Gentlemen.” Take these gems (spoilered for language and offensiveness):
In one post dated May 2013, a member defines a penis as “the tool used to wean and convert lesbians and virgins into useful, productive members of society.”
Is this someone who I’d expect to show basic respect for me, much less live up to the high standards outlined above? No.
In another post, a woman is shown in a bikini with a caption that says, “Bang until stress is relieved or unconscious (girl).”
Is this someone I’d trust with my life when I’m unconscious? Heck no.
If these students don’t have a basic regard for the dignity of half the population, how can their patients trust them? How can their female patients trust them when they make jokes about giving chloroform to women to make them pass out? How can the public trust dentistry as a profession if they willingly let people like this into their ranks?
So, yes, expel them. They dishonor the entire profession by their presence, and an extra few years isn’t going to fix their complete lack of understanding of professionalism and their gaping character flaws.
Exactly. These people want to do a job which involves close contact with anaesthetised patients, and they joke in public* about putting someone to sleep and raping them? Not at all acceptable, and they should certainly be expelled, and if possible prevented from getting any sort of medical career.
*Anything you put on the internet should be considered public, I don’t care how “private” it’s supposed to be.
But you’re in a position to make the distinction between “joking” and “seriously threatening something horrible” because you have a long history with these people, right? And because you were included in the context of the joke, right?
None of that applies here-- two female students were named, and I don’t know if it was with their knowledge or consent. The news reports make it clear that students were uncomfortable because of this; it obviously wasn’t clear to the student body that this was just a joke.
The burden of not being creepy falls on the person making the joke.
Out of curiosity, if one of these fine young men went on to be a dentist, and sexually abused a patient or employee, and these posts came out during a civil trial, just how fucked would the university be, and how quickly would their insurance company back away?
This sort of thing is 100% context. Any number of things can map this anywhere in between “not even an issue” to “expelling is almost too light a punishment”.
If two people are extremely good friends who give each other shit, saying “Jodie, I’m going to rape and murder you, bitch!” may be extremely funny to Jodie. In that case it’s perhaps in bad taste to post publicly, and certainly shouldn’t be posted on any official, outward facing profile, but it’s okay.
This is in an area where it’s making people uncomfortable, and doesn’t really seem like gentle jokes between mutual friends. Is expelling the right action? I’m not sure, but I think it’s telling to me that I’m not 100% sure that expelling them is the wrong action. I’d probably go with some sort of academic probation, personally, but I can’t give an airtight argument against expelling them.
I’m sympathetic to the idea that the intimate nature of dentistry makes this more sensitive than if they were cube workers. I still think that view suffers from the ignorance is bliss principle. A lot of seemingly normal people have past times and opinions that don’t spill over into their professional lives. For all you know your dentist is a Stormfront mod and your gynecologist beats it to rape porn.
From the linked articles, no threats were made. No one was planning anything. No one was stalked. They were making misogynistic comments with each other on the internet, a common past time of males everywhere (men are pigs). “Fuck, kill, marry” is a common game, sounds hardly different. When men get together they don’t speak of doing horrible things to theoretical, Platonic women, but often times specific ones they know, by name.
Maybe I missed something. Maybe they’ll be prosecuted for felony conspiracy.
But I generally frown on efforts to torpedo people’s careers over their personal opinions expressed on their own time, even repellant ones, as long as they do their job and don’t break laws. It smacks of conservative witch hunts, which is why it distresses me so much to see so many liberals embracing it (for now mostly over social issues, race/feminism/LBGQT, sometimes religion, abortion seems to have stayed out of it for the most part). There was a time when you could be fired for expressing what are now normal liberal opinions. Perhaps it won’t ever go back to that, but things can run in cycles.
Given widespread misogynistic viewpoints, is this even a question? Let’s say it’s just these students who thinks that’s OK. They’re a fringe minority in a huge country then. Do they think they’re of good character? I bet so. Most people don’t think they are bad people.
I will grant that many men do this, but that doesn’t make it defensible. In fact, it was a major factor in why I didn’t really have close male friends for a long time until I found ones who didn’t do that shit.
Does it provide grounds to effectively ruin their lives (or at least to brand them, to have them forfeit almost four years of work, and to find themselves without a ‘life plan’)? For doing what so many jerks do but without being found out?
Karl, Karl, Karl. Actually I never thought you deserved the award. Your OP never asserted a 1st Amendment violation, so my snark (yes, I’m guilty on that count) wasn’t actually directed at you. But, actually no ones facebook’s posts “belong” to the person who posts it. If there is any ownership after it’s been posted, I believe it may actually belong to facebook. But that is neither here nor there.
The point is they put into the public forum, in a manor that is directly traceable to them specifically, hate-speech. And there are consequences for doing so. Any private entity (like the school in question) can decide if those consequences include action by them. If I work for Avis Rent-A-Car, and I post on facebook that I regularly wack off in the rental cars before they are rented out, pretty sure that Avis is going to can my ass. This is no different, except that actually it’s worse. They crossed a line that society has deemed, or is slowly beginning to be dragged kicking and screaming into finally deeming, unacceptable. The degradation of women is unacceptable, and if the university in question decides that they don’t want these “young gentleman” representing their school, then they can do that.
So, yes, they are free to make these statements. They did. Let freedom ring!!!
And now, the consequences.
By the way, the “I’ll use simpler words” part of your reply was out of line and insulting, IMHO. Just saying. This isn’t the pit. Bad form.
So I understand that #notallmen is a pretty annoying thing to bring up under some circumstances, but here it’s perfectly appropriate. If you choose to associate with terrible men, that’s on you. I’ve spent some decades hanging out with men; the sort of ugly bullshit you describe is vanishingly rare in my experience, and when it shows up, I stop hanging out with the lowlifes engaged in that behavior. Plenty of men manage to make it through the day without saying something horrible about women.
Your implication is that expressing an idea like, “black people should be treated equally to white people” is equivalent on some level to expressing an idea like, “hur hur, imagine using your dental anesthetic to drug and rape that bitch!” Which, no. Just, no.
I’m pretty sure the code of conduct doesn’t say that you have to THINK you’re of good character. Self-esteem isn’t what it’s about. Indeed, self-esteem is highly overrated. I don’t care whether these terrible excuses for people think they’re good people. They’re joking about using tools of their profession to commit rape. If I were on the professional board that decided whether to give them access to those tools, I’m not leaning toward approval.
Read your post again, in the context of the OP, and then tell me who was insulting whom.
Too soon.
Wayyyy too soon.
They committed the crime of stupidity. Make them work for subsistence wages providing dental care for the needy for a few years after they graduate. If that can’t be contractually guaranteed then expel them.
I did read it again. And nope, still you. My “first off” and “second off” were both things you did not do, and I in no way replied directly to your OP in stating them. There were multiple posts in between, and some brought up the 1st amendment. But even they didn’t get it wrong in application. But if this thread goes on long enough, someone will, it always happens. Think of my post as more a foreshadowing of what will come.
If you insist on panty twisting, that’s up to you. The point of my replies is that these guys should not be protected from the consequences of their actions, no matter what country or jurisdiction they are in. It is not protected speech to disparage or threaten women, even if done in a " boys will be boys" way.
Do lots of guys do this kind of thing? I am sure they do. Doesn’t make it okay. Doesn’t mean they should be winked at and sent on their way.
Just because you and your friends get off on jokes about fucking and killing women doesn’t mean that it’s common. Maybe it means that you and your friends are just the kind of people who find talking about who among your acquaintances you’d like to kill and fuck to be a fun, exciting time. Don’t try to justify it by assuming that “everybody” does it. Your disgusting habits are your own, not “everyman”'s.
So apparently marshmallow would be fine being represented in a criminal case by a lawyer who had made hateful online posts about him to her friends. After all, it’s just joking amongst friends, right? Happens all the time.
I will note that if I were the father of one of those two girls, expulsion is about the least these pieces of shit should be worried about.