And yes, people who do shit like this are bigots and thugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxdTEVzzr_s
And yes, comparing the EDL to the KKK is perfectly acceptable and to the Muslims in the restaurant being terrorized by them it makes perfect sense.
I for one would have no idea what you were referring to if you referred to it as anything else. I think a fair claim could be made that you need to identify it that way for the sake of clarity.
I was under the impression that the Koran calls for the death of gays and atheists. I know the Bible is full of similar shit, especially the Old Testament, which many Christians disregard (when it suits them). Is it a similar situation wrt to the Koran and gays?
Except the proposed Community Center in question A)isn’t a Mosque and B)isn’t at Ground Zero. In fact, even if it’s built you won’t be able to see it from Ground Zero.
While “Ground Zero Mosque” was a mendacious label invented to get some people worked up, it is, thanks to heavy promotion of the term by Faux News, a widely recognizable term for the project.
In any event, discussing that nomenclature is not on topic for this thread.
Yes.
vIslam ‘recognizes homosexuality’
Abdul Khalik, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Fri, 03/28/2008 1:38 AM A | A | A |
Homosexuals and homosexuality are natural and created by God, thus permissible within Islam, a discussion concluded here Thursday.
Moderate Muslim scholars said there were no reasons to reject homosexuals under Islam, and that the condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality by mainstream ulema and many other Muslims was based on narrow-minded interpretations of Islamic teachings.
Siti Musdah Mulia of the Indonesia Conference of Religions and Peace cited the Koran’s al-Hujurat (49:3) that one of the blessings for human beings was that all men and women are equal, regardless of ethnicity, wealth, social positions or even sexual orientation.
“There is no difference between lesbians and nonlesbians. In the eyes of God, people are valued based on their piety,” she told the discussion organized by nongovernmental organization Arus Pelangi.
“And talking about piety is God’s prerogative to judge,” she added.
“The essence of the religion (Islam) is to humanize humans, respect and dignify them.”
Sorry about the link, here is some of the article, and there are a number of gay and lesbian Muslim rights organizations that believe there is room in Islam for dialog, dissent and debate about homophobic verses in the Koran.
Irshad Manji is a lesbian Muslim who speaks out on the view that homosexuality is not at odds with Islam.
He has a long habit of starting anti-muslim threads in GD, many of which eventually get locked. Examples:
Defending western values against the attack of Islam
What do ex-Muslims and disidents have to say about Islam.
Is a CounterJihad forming in the West?
Everybody draw Mohammed" on May 20 to support South Park
Why are the media ignoring the protest against the ground zero mosque?
round Zero Imam – How moderate does he sound?
Is Islamic violence the real winner in the Koran-burning incident?
Are we being naive about the possibility of Egyptian “democracy”?
Is this Muslim cleric justifying lying for his religion?
Will these hearings “demonize” Muslims in America?
Nm
I see no evidence that these punks are anything more than a marginal rabble. They do not represent the EDL.
Look at the double logic you are using:
a) If gangs of Muslim youths beat up gays on the streets of Europe we must remember that they are not representative of Islam.
b) But if a few punks who probably have no real affiliation with the EDL do something like this, this **IS representative **of the EDL?
There is a difference, though. Islam officially sanctions the killing and persecution of homosexuals in its writings and its doctrine.
Mohammed himself (PBUH) is recorded in Hadiths as saying homosexuals should be thrown off cliffs.
Here is what the EDL gives as its official position on its website, in its mission statement. I would recommend you read the entire mission statement at http://englishdefenceleague.org/about-us/mission-statement/
(1) HUMAN RIGHTS: Protecting And Promoting Human Rights
The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure. Although these actions were certainly those of a minority, we believe that they reflect other forms of religiously-inspired intolerance and barbarity that are thriving amongst certain sections of the Muslim population in Britain: including, but not limited to, the denigration and oppression of women, the molestation of young children, the committing of so-called honour killings, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and continued support for those responsible for terrorist atrocities.
Whilst we must always protect against the unjust assumption that all Muslims are complicit in or somehow responsible for these crimes, we must not be afraid to speak freely about these issues. This is why the EDL will continue to work to protect the inalienable rights of all people to protest against radical Islam’s encroachment into the lives of non-Muslims.
We also recognise that Muslims themselves are frequently the main victims of some Islamic traditions and practices. The Government should protect the individual human rights of members of British Muslims. It should ensure that they can openly criticise Islamic orthodoxy, challenge Islamic leaders without fear of retribution, receive full equality before the law (including equal rights for Muslim women), and leave Islam if they see fit, without fear of censure.
British Muslims should be able to safely demand reform of their religion, in order to make it more relevant to the needs of the modern world and more respectful of other groups in society. It is important that they completely reject the views of those who believe that Islam should be taken in its ‘original’, 7th century form, because these interpretations are the antithesis of Western democracy. The onus should be on British Muslims to overcome the problems that blight their religion and achieve nothing short of an Islamic reformation. In line with this, we should do all that we can to empower those who are willing to take this path. We must also ensure that they do not fear reprisals from those who, in line with these 7th century interpretations, would force sharia law upon them.
You are a conceited <expletive deleted>. It must make you feel rather grand, “150 million people want me dead”. Actually, no you are not that important. Most muslims (and I suspect non muslims) I suspect don’t give a flying fuck one way or the other about you, so you could be straight, gay, pedest, zoophile, necorophile and really no one really gives a damn about you or anyone else for that matter.
A world where devout Muslims got over their obsession with murdering strangers for no good reason would be a great thing indeed, forums.poster AK84! But I don’t think we are there yet.
Val,
Obviously comparisons between the EDL and the KKK aren’t 100% accurate since vastly more members of the EDL have been arrested for attacking Muslims and Asians and for vandalizing Mosques then the number of KKK members who’ve been arrested for assaulting minorities and burning down churches.
That said, this thread isn’t about the EDL, it’s about your insistence that no public figure can condemn homophobia practiced by Muslims without being called a bigot and that no one can ask Muslims to be tolerant of gays without being accused of bigotry.
The closest you came was one long rant by the EDL which had one sentence condemning homophobia amongst a laundry list of other things without showing that the EDL was condemned for criticizing homophobia as opposed to vandalizing Mosques.
Now, please produce evidence of people being condemned for bigotry for merely criticizing homophobic Muslims.
Then you will be making an argument. For now, you’re merely ranting.
I daresay >150M people in the world would answer “yes” to a question whether any random American should be killed. Gay, straight or whatever.
We can all bask in the soothing warmth of victimhood!
To be fair I haven’t heard of any lynchings by the EDL.
The problem is that organizations like the EDL are often a “legitimate” front for more extreme views, much as Sinn Fein and the NSDAP were. I have no doubt that many members of the EDL are racist and use Islamic homophobia and other issues as excuses for their views.
Anyway, I’ll join the people asking for evidence of what you said and something we can actually discuss instead of just arguing about the smaller points and the EDL.
Knock it off. Making an attack on another poster while “hiding” whatever term of opprobrium you chose is not acceptable.
[ /Moderating ]
Valteron, you have had multiple opportunities (based on your repeated posts), to provide evidence that people are attacked as racist for opposing homophobia among Muslims. You have declined to provide even one example, while repeatedly finding ways to post further rants. I told you at the very beginning of this thread that I would leave a debate in GD, but that rants go, (as usual), in The BBQ Pit.
If you wish to open a separate thread to defend the EDL against charges of racism, (since defending homosexuality appears to have no connection to the charges against them of racism), you are welcome to do so–with the same rules applying: you will need to focus on your purported debate topic and not go haring off into anti-Muslim screeds.
Off the The BBQ Pit.
[ /Moderating ]
Apologies. I though this was in the pit.
Ah, the Pit.
I know who I’d rather hang out with if offered a choice between your average western Muslim or Valteron.
Do they want that for your orientation or your personality? 
(Just curious.)