Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways?

The BBQ Pit
61

It is now.

62

Well, now it is.

63

Well, he’s come out of the closet but remains in the Star Chamber…

64

The OP is a stooge, a dupe, either knowingly or otherwise, he labors to distract our attention from our real enemies, enemies in our very midst. Enemies who gnaw away, quietly, subtly, at the very foundations of our civilization. Behind the mask of modesty and simplicity is a whirling chaos of hatred and cunning. Intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, slowly and surely draw their plans against us.

The discerning reader will know at once that, of course, I speak of the Amish…

65

I think the Starfish Chamber might be a better name.

66

Just out of curiosity, what would be “evidence that people are attacked as racist for opposing homophobia among Muslims” for the purposes of this discussion?

I know for a fact that I have been called a racist on several occasions after I said that the growth of Muslim communities in my country is very threatening to gay persons like myself. These were private group discussions of which there is no written or video record. My position was once qualified as racist in a letter to the editor, but I do not have the exact text or date. I also do not remember if the letter criticized only homophobia and nothing but homophobia among Muslims, or if it criticised other aspects, which would disqualify my letter as the type of evidence you require.

I have been called an “Islam hater” for posting comments on Youtube condemning Islamic homophobia, but those have been over several yaers and the word used was not “racist” on every occasion.

I take it that the evidence you require is this: 1)A video or written statement 2)in which a person criticizes Islamic homophobia and absolutely no other aspect of Islam whatever 3) and is then called a racist for having said that.

Well, as I said, I have seen that happen, and I suspect that Tomndebb and Ibn Warraq strongly suspect that that has happened, but since I do not have documentary or video evidence that meets those requirements, only anecdotal evidence, I guess you have raised the goal posts high enough to defeat me. Congratulations!

By the way, was the original, central point of my OP an allegation that every person who criticises Islamic homophobia is inevitably called a racist?

It seems to me that my central point was “Should homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect are a two-way street.” But since I could have produced a lot of evidence on that count, I guess Tomndebb chose not to make that the determining factor to send my thread to the Pit.

67

Probably because that’s a pretty fucking racist thing to say.
“The presence of extremists within our country presents a significant problem”
vs
“The number of Muslims within our country presents a significant problem”

Spot the difference?

Probably because “Islamic homophobia” isn’t any different from Christian, Jewish, atheist, Good Ol’ Boy, uptight old folks, etc… homophobia. Again, spot the difference between:
“Homophobes are backwards, bigoted assholes.”
and
“Islamic homophobia is a threat!”
And just to satisfy your martyrdom fetish, I too think you are a racist.

68

Your ‘central point’ is unlikely to serve as the foundation for any kind of enlightening debate, and as far as I can see, this thread was sent to to the Pit for being yet another bigoted, anti-muslim rant from you.

If you want to rant your stupid rants, rant away, but for fuck’s sake do yourself a favor and stop your insufferable whining about how they are treated here.

69

THERE IS THE EXACT EVIDENCE THAT YOU AND IBN WARRAQ HAVE BEEN BROWBEATING ME FOR!:slight_smile:
In response to my comment : “Islamic homophobia is a threat” FinnAgain says “I too think you are a racist.”

You asked for evidence that this happens, and FinnAgain has kindly supplied it. How on Earth Islam qualifies as a race is a matter for another debate.

70

Yes. Yes, he is. Scared shitless.

71

Ah, the “I’m not a racist! Sir, I’ll have you know I’m a bigot!” gambit.

72

Oooh, you’re so lucky they can’t read that.

73

That old red herring again. It happens outside Islam so we can’t talk about Islamic homophobia.

Even in the Pit, I prefer reasoned arguments to empty insults. So if you really believe your above statement, I invite you to look at this Wikipedia article on LGBT rights by country and territory. LGBTQ rights by country or territory - Wikipedia

Look especially at the world map that comes with this article. The dark blue countries are those that have not only decriminalized, and protected the civil rights of gays, but have also enacted full marriage equality. Do you see any Muslim countries in that group? There are about 10 of them plus a number of US States. Light blue have some kind of civil union short of marriage. All of these jurisdictions are western (the Republic of South Africa is a hybrid case, admittedly, but has heavy western influence).

Now look at the homophobic end of the spectrum. Orange indicates heavy penalties and red or rust indicates the friggin death sentence!!! These include Saudi Arabia, the Muslim north of Nigeria, Yemen, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan. . . . . Muslim countries!

Now I realize there are exceptions on both sides. Jamaica is very homophobic, and Turkey and Indonesia do not criminalize (although there is heavy pressure from Islamists to do so.)

But look at the overall trend, will you?

In the west, demands that gays be executed are usually associated with the KKK, Fed Phelps’ gang of loonies, and a few marginalized idiots. The Uganda “Kill the Gays Bill” has been opposed by none other than the POPE! in other words, even the most conservatively homophobic mainstream Christian leader, Pope Benedict, is against the execution of gays.

In most of Islam, execution, stoning, lashing and imprisonment of gays IS mainstream thought. It is preached in Mosques and Islamic schools right in the West.

Sorry FinnAgain, but you are comparing chalk and cheese.

74

Mmmmmm… cheese!

75

I prefer smoked Gouda, Jarlsberg and a nice extra sharp cheddar with real bite, myself.

76

Got some of the first kind in the fridge right now. Hopefully, the evil moosilums won’t take it away from me! This is a real concern, and I posted about it on youtube. Why is everyone laughing at me?

77

The discerning reader will also know at once that you cribbed that post from several recognizable sources. ;):smiley:

78

FinnAgain, I asked you to look at the map of LGBT rights in the world and justify your assertion that ““Islamic homophobia” isn’t any different from Christian, Jewish, atheist, Good Ol’ Boy, uptight old folks, etc… homophobia.”

Instead, you just indulge in cheese jokes.

I guess that is one of the advantages of sending my thread to the Pit. People like you don’t have to engage in logical argument here.

79

You asked me for precise evidence of someone calling me a racist immediately after I complained about Islamic homophobia (and about nothing else but). The idea that people who complain about Islamic homophobia run the risk of being called racist was NOT the main point of my OP, but for some reason my inability to supply an exact piece of evidence meeting your criteria was the dealbreaker that got my thread sent to the Pit.

Although I HAVE been called racist for this reason, I had no documentary proof to offer.

But in fact, FinnAgain kindly (but probably unintentionally) supplied exactly the evidence you are asking for. See posting #69. Why are you ignoring this?

80

If murderous homophobic views are so rare and marginal in the rapidly growing Muslim communities in the West, why are the non-homophobic majority not protesting more loudly?

To put it another way, how many Muslims demonstrated their rage against the Dnish cartoons of Mohammed? Here is a small part of the demo in London:

["][URL="http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=Demo+against+Danish+Cartoons+of+Mohammed&hl=en&biw=960&bih=495&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=niWNdkCpDR1f5M:&imgrefurl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/mar/07/ukcrime.religion&docid=pWuuCoazVgfa1M&imgurl=http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/01/05/toon1.jpg&w=372&h=192&ei=NE9BT7vwJIPg0QGAhpTaBw&zoom=1"]]([URL="http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=Demo+against+Danish+Cartoons+of+Mohammed&hl=en&biw=960&bih=495&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=niWNdkCpDR1f5M:&imgrefurl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/mar/07/ukcrime.religion&docid=pWuuCoazVgfa1M&imgurl=http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/01/05/toon1.jpg&w=372&h=192&ei=NE9BT7vwJIPg0QGAhpTaBw&zoom=1)
For drawing friggin’ cartoons, Danish cartoonists still live under police protection. Mobs rioted and burned embassies in Islamic countries.

Now here is a picture of two gay teenagers who have been hanged in keeping with the rules of Islam. ["][URL="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lCftRrT_cGY/S134huKsfWI/AAAAAAAAADk/pPBK3-xMEp8/s1600-h/muslims-hang-gays.jpg"]]([URL="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lCftRrT_cGY/S134huKsfWI/AAAAAAAAADk/pPBK3-xMEp8/s1600-h/muslims-hang-gays.jpg)
When some significant element of the Muslim community (especially those in the west) gets one hundreth as outraged over this as over a cartoon, then I will take seriously their commitment to our western values of diversity and respect.