The links to the pics in my previous message did not come across. Here is another attempt.
Gay teens hanging: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lCftRrT_cGY/S134huKsfWI/AAAAAAAAADk/pPBK3-xMEp8/s1600-h/muslims-hang-gays.jpg
Talent borrows, genius steals.
Actually, you are wrong, (as usual).
You claim that Finn made his observation that you are racist based on one comment in one post.
I strongly suspect that Finn made his observation based on multiples of your posts that were racist over multiple threads. (Or, even more likely, he was yanking your chain since it would seem more likely that you are simply an irrational ranter than that you are actually racist, per se.)
Maybe science will one day prove beyond doubt that, “Sexual Orientation”, both Cerebral and Physical is either, a Neurological/Biological Disorder or a Natural Occurrence in Human Physiology.
Then everyone can SHUT THE HELL UP about it. :rolleyes:
Because it makes exactly no difference in the lives of anyone who is not directly involved.
You have now moved the goal posts so far that I cannot see them without a huge telescope. Someone just called me a racist after I complained about Islamic homophobia but that doesn’t count because he was just baiting me?
And because it is only one comment? (Do I hear the goal posts moving again?) A minumum number of examples was not among the criteria that you originally dreamed up. And also, you will note that my commenrt about critics of Islamic homophobia being called racist was only a minor comment in my OP, not the main point.
Also, I get the impressioin that you know or strongly suspect (according to your own words, above, strong suspicion seems to count for something) that people who have criticised Islamic homophobia are and have been called racist, even if I cannot get you an exact document that meets all your criteria.
I know you know, and I am in the Pit anyhow, so let’s stop flogging a dead horse.
In a more serious vein, I invite you to listen to what British author and broadcaster Douglas Murray says about the EDL in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3fsynNRIFg
Note beginning at around 35 seconds how he mentions that the EDL marched with banners decrying sexism and homophobia.
Oh sorry, I forgot. Your criteria demand a case where someone was called racist after decrying Islamic homophobia ALONE! Darn that Murray. Why did he have to mention sexism as well?
I guess these Iranian gays are no longer directly involved, so you need not concern yourself with them and their families. http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=Muslim+persecution+of+gays&hl=en&biw=960&bih=495&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=odivYgJhRrBLaM:&imgrefurl=http://ilga.org/ilga/en/article/nhGirSA1dM&docid=GVlLBlaQ70XqiM&imgurl=http://ilga.org/ilga/static/uploads/images/2011/11/29/not1more.jpg&w=468&h=318&ei=XVxBT9KEC8Sr0AGSit3gBw&zoom=1
I was not ignoring anything, but I don’t hover over The BBQ Pit, (or even Great Debates), all day waiting to respond to your missives.
If people being accused of racism for complaining about Islamic homophobia was not the point of your OP, then you did a really poor job of writing your OP, because that is what every respondent took away from it.
However, even if you had some other point, such as that people should be allowed to confront homophobia within Islam, there was no debate to be had: no one has challenged that assertion. Pretty much everyone on the SDMB (minus a tiny minority of homophobes), agree that homophobia can and should be condemned. So there is little to nothing to debate, there. YOU turned it into a discussion of whether such opponents need to fear being called names, (whether it is “racist” or something else), when you made the utterly frivolous claim that people tend to keep quiet because of that fear. You have failed to provide any evidence that anyone in non-Muslim countires has been censured in any way for opposing homophobia in Islam. The only things you have brought to the table have been anecdotes in which you have been accused of various prejudices. I already noted, however, that YOUR manner of presentation is liable to bring that condemnation down on YOU. You are always strident. You play fast and loose with your words. You make broad brush accusations that are often easily refuted. Just as Finn has responded to the body of your “work” on the SDMB with a smart-assed remark that you are racist, I suspect that you invite such comments in just about any gathering or forum in which you participate.
That, however, does not translate into the claims you made and refused to defend when this thread was still in Great Debates.
That you are concerned about the effect of growing numbers of Muslims in Western countries is understandable, (if, in my opinion, overblown). That you want to have a debate on the issue in which nearly your entire audience already agrees with your philosophical point but disagrees with your real world claim (that you refuse to defend with actual facts) is simply not going to fly in Great Debates. If you want to warn us all of the Great Menace that is Islam, then stick it in The BBQ Pit. If you wish to debate a topic, come up with a topic on which a number of people disagree and lay forth your arguments to persuade us of the truth of your beliefs.
Debate topics:[ul]
[li]People should oppose homophobia as expressed in many Islamic pronouncements.[/li]We nearly all agree and there is no debate.
[li]People are afraid to oppose homophobia as expressed in many Islamic pronouncements.[/li]This is a point on which people may agree and disagree, but we need to see evidence of it actually happening in order to discuss the matter.
[/ul]
One excitable poster who has demonstrated a propensity for overstating his own beliefs using personal anecdotes to support a claim that it happened to him is not something we can debate. Even if it is true, there is no evidence that it has happened to anyone else and needs to be addressed in society. All you needed to do was present evidence that your experience was widely repeated and you would have an argument. Instead, you reached out to grab a bunch of anecdotes that failed to support your claim. The very first one that I looked up actually proved you wrong:
You provided a link, (accompanied by some sarcastic comments about “moderate” Muslims), to a story of Imam Adhami making stupid statements about homosexuality after he was taken on as a consultant at Park51. It took me fewer than five minutes to find this happened over a year ago and that people protested his remarks, (so no one was cowed into not protesting), and that Park51 booted him out in less than three weeks, (so no one was cowed into refusing to take action), and that Imam Rauf, (whom you implied was a homophobe), had never agreed with Adhami’s claim to begin with, along with the evidence that this story–including Adhami’s dismissal–was already reported in gay oriented media.That is how debate works and you are either incredibly poor at it or you are more interested in your ranting than in debate.
Fine. Post your objections, here, not in Great Debates.
You have it backwards. The EDL is perceived as xenophobes because they produce a lot of xenophobic rhetoric. When they mention homophobia and sexism, that is merely a tactic they use to try to garner broader support among the populace. They are not condemned for that support of broader rights based on gender or sexual orientation.
Do you have any evidence that they are condemned for those positions? Do you have a citation where a British politician condemns EDL, pointing out that they promote equal rights for women or homosexuals? There is so much “anti-foreigner” rhetoric in their literature that it seems clear that xenophobia, not support for homosexuality, is what motivates their opponents to reject their message.
Without making the claim that they are equivalent to the KKK, I will note that there are similarities. The KKK, (particularly in the 1920s), made a very big deal about being “American.” Their version of being “American” excluded Catholics, Jews, recent immigrants, and blacks. One could read a lot of their literature and find noble statements defending “American” virtues–as long as one understood that one needed to be WASP to be a “real” American. Now, using your logic, they were probably being harrassed unfairly as a hate group when it was clear that they were simply promoting the “American” virtues of industriousness, loyalty to country and the flag, defense of the family, and so forth. Obviously, anyone who condemned the KKK was just anti-American. So, too, the EDL is “defending” various virtues in British society, so opposition to them must be created by fear of Islam.
Fail.
My only regret is that I’m straight and so it’s not really viable for me to have big gay sex with a Muslim just to piss Valteron off. Such is life.
P.S. After reading Valteron’s posts over the year I think he is probably both moderately racist and moderately unhinged. Either that or moderately unhinged in such a way that it comes across as racism. I’m not sure there’s much difference in that distinction.
What I mean is…
Once science plants a foot one direction or the other, then the rest of the world has a foundation to treat Homosexuality as a Disorder or a Normality.
I don’t understand how this has not been already discussed to infinitude and then tolerated after 10,000 years.
Not only that, but with a specified Latin term describing a marriage between two of the same, instead of using the term *Marriage.
It isn’t anyone’s business whom someones relationship is with.
The intolerance of religions is the whole reason the world cant get along.
(*not that there’s anything wrong with that)
Hijack time, NTTAWWT:
Why come up with a new term when “marriage” works?
Well, aside from establishing guidelines for medical emergencies, joint ownership of property, inheritance, child rearing, and a host of other issues without the need to go have it written up by lawyers.
Without hijacking the hijack, I will note that marriage has always been a civil function of society, regardless whether or not it is undertaken beneath the auspices of religion.
Wrong on both counts. (Unless you’re nitpicking the spelling, which apparently you are not.) So incredibly flat wrong, in fact, that one has to wonder if you thought you were posting in a different forum.
Tell that to the cops for me next week, after I knock over a bank, would you?
No, it’s really not. We want evidence that *anyone *who criticizes Islamic homophobes is called a bigot. The fact that you were just called a bigot doesn’t prove anything, because you are, in fact, a gigantic bigot. Not because you criticize Islamic homophobia, but because of the manner and tenor by which you do it. However, this doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to criticize Islamic homophobia. Allow me to demonstrate:
Homophobia is a major problem in many Islamic countries. The treatment of gays in nations such as Saudi Arabia and Iran is disgraceful and inhuman, and Muslims who commit violence against gays in Europe and the US should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
I now predict that the number of responses seriously accusing me of anti-Muslim bigotry will be zero. Because there is not one single person on this board who objects to criticism of homophobia in Islam. There are, however, plenty of people who are sick of seeing a legitimate topic of concern hijacked by dishonest, hateful little toads like yourself.
If you had gay sex with a Muslim in the seven or eight Muslim countries that have the death penalty, it would be “unviable” for you in the literal sense of the word.
I am a racist? Since a race is defined as a group of persons sharing distinctive physical characteristics, please look at these pictures of Muslims and tell me how they constitute a race.
Then look at this guy in Italy: http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=blonde+muslims&hl=en&biw=960&bih=495&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=E2Y-9xjDncKpkM:&imgrefurl=http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/archive-sep-2007.php&docid=mUokhIQMUMZoBM&imgurl=http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/eurabia_muslim_italy.jpg&w=360&h=365&ei=n3xBT_n5B6Ld0QGDn5nGBw&zoom=1
Then look at this guy: http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=nigerian+muslims&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=960&bih=495&tbm=isch&tbnid=5QfWqI7mWAzkRM:&imgrefurl=http://newshopper.sulekha.com/nigeria-muslim-eid-al-adha_photo_1604247.htm&docid=ELYycjOqbJ188M&imgurl=http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original700/nigeria-muslim-eid-al-adha-2010-11-16-6-30-13.jpg&w=800&h=552&ei=gn1BT72hFMTf0QGJ1tTtBw&zoom=1
Do they all look like members of a single racial group to you? BTW, my own skin colour is about the same as that of the Italian guy.
Not That There’s Anything Wrong With That.
Ah, another round of “Shut the fuck you, you! I’m not a racist, I’m a bigot!!!”
OKAY! So now I have to prove that ANYONE who criticizes Islamic homophobes will be called a bigot! So even if FinnAgain and Miller call me a bigot, it is still not enough.
In the first place, this whole idea that I said that people who criticise Isl;amic homophobia are called bigots came from the following quote in my OP:
"Fine. As a gay person I would never set foot in a Muslim country. I have enough sense to stay away. But when that same homophobic ideology that is Islam arrives in democratic countries and begins to impose its hatred on me, at what point am I allowed to push back without being called a bigot or (incomprehensibly) a “racist”?
This was not even the main point of my argument.
The point of my argument was that Homophobe Muslims in the west do not seem to realize that the respect they claim for themselves under the western values of diversity and tolerance works as a two-way street. That was the title of my OP and the first point I made.
Tom and Ibn Warraq chose to make the largely rhetorical question "at what point am I allowed to push back without being called a bigot or (incomprehensibly) a “racist”? into my central thesis and demanded that I prove that in every case in which a person complains of Muslim homophobia, they are automatically called a racist. Since anyone would be unable to prove something so nebulous, my thread was kicked down to the Pit.
Thanks for trying to help me, but apparently, not only do I have to show that I get called a bigot, but I have to prove that everyone who ever criticises Muslim homophobia gets called a bigot 100% of the time.
But your kind words are appreciated, nonetheless.