Wrong. He said:
The amount he has to pay is half of what a state school costs.
This wasn’t hashed out in the divorce decree because they chose not to. He needs to take half the responsibility for that. Also, we have no indication that the child didn’t decide to go there herself. If that is the case, I doubt you can blame the ex-wife.
I don’t think you would be doing your daughter a favor by letting her think that she can treat people horribly and then expect to be treated as if nothing were amiss. Your number 1 job as a parent is to instill values in your children, and the number 1 way you do this is by being a role model. Rolling over and letting some one abuse you is not being a good role model.
Your daughter has treated you with disrespect and contempt, while it sounds like you have made many sincere attempts to improve the relationship. No doubt your daughter has her own side to the story, but she’s not willing to tell it. She’s old enough to realize that her actions have consequences.
If the daughter and mother expect you to pay part of the college expenses, you should have been included in the planning stage. To exclude you from the process and then demand payment is appalling, disrepectful, contemptuous and downright rude. I think you owe it to your daughter to let her know that this is not acceptable behavior. If she has the “right” to expect tuition money from you, you have the right to be treated with courtesy. What kind of person is your daughter going to wind up being if she continues to think that she can treat people contemptibly and still get whatever she wants from them?
Excellent points spelled out here. And as far as “extortion”, isn’t it more like emotional blackmail? I thought I read way back in your earlier post that she could attend your college for free. WTF? If she can’t see the benefit of that, then I’m not sure she wants to be reasonable about this. Best of luck to you. Mr. beckwall
will be facing this same issue, with much of the same behavior from his daughter, in a few years. Not looking forward to it.
As a student who has been and still is relying on her parents to pay a truly ridiculous amount out of pocket for her college expenses, (thanks, Qadgop!) and the girlfriend of a guy whose financial situation would be so much less precarious if his deadbeat asshole father had EVER paid ANY of his damn child support… I say she and your ex-wife should get bent.
Maybe if you’re feeling really generous, make support contingent on her completing a course of therapy with you.
Also, I disagree with brickbacon. Just, y’know, generally speaking.
Speaking as someone from your state, whose parents had an extremely contentious divorce and post-divorce, and whose parents’ divorce decree was extraordinarily vague on the subject of college expenses [disclaimer: I have HUGE amounts of baggage on this very subject], a few thoughts:
The way it was explained to me, divorce law in this state (IL) is designed to provide children with the same opportunities they would have had if their parents had remained married. Both of my parents graduated college, and there is no quesiton that if my parents had remained married, college expenses would not have been nearly the issue they became.
My parents went to court with each other multiple times on the issue of my college expenses (ever have your dad subpoena you? Lemme tell you, that does wonders for a parent/child relationship, particularly when you end up spending more money suing each other than you spent cumulatively paying for your kid’s goddamn college education!). It was completely stupid and counterproductive.
Dad’s theory was that he shouldn’t have to pay half my remaining financial need, even though I got straight As all through high school while holding down a part-time job, and was planning to hold a part-time job in college as well as take out about $10k in student loans. He complained that he’d had no say in my choice, though he never asked me any questions about my choices or my reasons for them during the entire applications process, and when I asked him if he would have had me do anything differently (I ended up with a full-tuition scholarship to an expensive private university a subway ride from his house, which meant the cost of attendance was the same as in-state tuition at a state university at home), he told me “that’s not the point.” If he made any effort whatsoever to communicate with me during the decision-making process, I never noticed it.
Nor was the point that he could have easily afforded to pay my remaining bills for room, board, and books, nor was the point that his own parents, neither of whom ever went to college (Depression babies who were both 1st-generation immigrants) and who earned very little, paid for his tuition at an Ivy League school, even after he fucked up and flunked out. Nor was the point that he made roughly 4x what my mother did, at least partially because she sacrificed her own educational ambitions to put him through his MBA, so splitting 50/50 with her wasn’t really fair.
Of course, I never cut off communication with my dad, even though most of the time it felt like I was beating my head against the wall (he honestly didn’t understand why I was extremely upset to have my father subpoena me and then exclude me from the courtroom for the rest of the testimony). I agree that the OP’s daughter should communicate with him. (Of course, there are at least 2 sides to every story, and in a story like this one there are usually more than 2 sides.) But I really think that if he tries to get out of helping his daughter pay for college, there’s a damn good chance she will be bitter about it for the rest of her life, even if she decides to reopen communication with him sometime down the road. This will do irreparable harm to whatever shreds of a relaitonship they have left.
And there is a middle ground between splitting the bill and refusing to contribute anything at all; I do think the OP has the moral obligation to contribute something, in line with his resources. After all, would you be having this debate if the divorce had never happened?
I agree. I’ve offered to contribute a few thousand per year, if I can have some family counseling sessions and see my daughter once or twice per semester (I offered to pick her up and cook her dinner and return her to her dorm). The response was basically “Nope–pay your full share and see her and speak to her never.”
To which my response was (through my lawyer) “We’ll have to settle this in court,” which is where we now stand.
I thought you were a salamander, not a piggy bank.
I also think Misnomer’s last paragraph is brilliant. Your daughter ended the relationship. You probably can’t buy your way back into it, and even if you could, it is likely the wrong method.
brickbacon mentioned the “greater good.” Well, this is presumptuous of me, but which of the following is actually better for pseudotriton’s daughter to learn:
*Even if you hate him and refuse to speak to or communicate with him in any way, your father will always be there to give you money;
OR
*It’s your choice to let people in and keep people out of your life, but you have to accept the consequences of your actions. Especially when you’re an adult.
If she feels threatened by you, pseudotriton, and won’t even talk to you, how can she put her hand out? I wouldn’t take money from my father if I felt that way about him.
You should also consider how much money and time you’re going to spend fighting it in court as opposed to forking over the cash. How much is your lawyer billing you and how long is it going to take? I am not an advocate of the behavior your daughter is exhibiting but you ought to consider that if you spend roughly equal to the amount of money on your fight to not pay as you would paying the tuition-in the first scenario only your lawyer benefits whereas in the second your daughter (while not treating you well at all) stands to incur a great benefit.
Also, if your ex-wife has the resources you claim she does, she’s not going to drop the issue just b/c you have a lawyer-she’ll have her own lawyer. Ultimately you have to decide whether it’s worth it to fight (for the same money) to the bitter end in courts or to give your daughter the money and make sure it comes with strings attached to attend therapy. I hope you ask your lawyer to go for the second option and press for some sort of arbitration deal where this can be hammered out as a group decision (unfortunate as it is that it’s descended to having lawyers present) rather than the first-it seems like it would yield more benefits to you in the end. If it’s not possible to get that deal then you end up with the choice to litigate and spend the money you could on your daughter with the hopes that age, and perhaps distance from her mother, brings some amount of perspective.
Unfortunately, a deal-breaker. It’s just “Dad, I want the money, but you get no part of me,” which I can’t live with. I offered three thousand, plus some therapy and dinners, as I said, and skip the lawyers and the trial, but got told “No way.”
I’m being more general than ever I guess, but pseudo, I suggest you think of this purely as a moral thing and leave your relationship with your daughter out of it. She’s either going to make the effort to restart a relationship with you someday or she won’t. She may never reach out to you even if you give her the money - sorry to say I wouldn’t find that shocking the way things stand at the present - and she may pick up the phone one day even if you don’t. It’s not in your hands, so don’t try to curry favor with her that way.
Was that last exchange with your daughter directly, or with your ex?
When was the last time you had any meaningful interchange with your daughter directly, without your ex present?
I was shocked, years after the fact, when Mom showed me all the letters my dad (actually my stepmom, the litigator - I know the difference between her writing style and my dad’s quite well) had written to her on the subject of my colllege educaiton and other support-related issues (both for me, and for my younger sister, who never did make it through college). Dad and my stepmom really assumed I had a much greater role in keeping them informed about my future plans than I realized.
I would have been glad to answer any questions, but they never asked - they apparently expected regular debriefings, initiated by me, and when these were not forthcoming in the manner they apparently expected, they seemed to draw the conclusion that I was wilfully withholding information from them. I just had no clue they even wanted to know, and they never did manage to take issue with any of my choices on a substantive level.
For my own part, I was really disgusted and pissed off that Dad refused even to provide any information about his finances to 2 schools I’d been admitted to, even directly to the financial aid office in confidence (Georgetown and the U. of C., by far the most selective places I’d been admitted). He knew damn well that meant I wouldn’t get any financial aid there, and therefore would be unable to attend at all. Sometimes I wish I’d done what one college friend did; lied and said my dad hadn’t provided any support at all, so they shouldn’t take his finances into account.
Why shouldn’t I have been able to expect both of my parents to make analogous sacrifices to send me to college that their own parents had made on their behalf? I’d done my part, grades-wise, and then some.
Gosh, thanks! 
Are you serious? That might make sense if pseudotriton ruber ruber were merely concerned with the expense of the tuition, but the issue is that his daughter is trying to have her cake and eat it, too. Sometimes it really should be all about the principle of a thing.
Sorry, I do not believe that having your college education paid for is a right. She can – and should – figure out another way to pay for this part of her “great benefit.” If pseudotriton ruber ruber caves on this issue, all his daughter will learn is that there are no consequences to her actions. A college education means little if she graduates believing that it’s ok to manipulate and be cruel to the people who care about her.
Stick to those guns. You will do no one – not yourself, not your daughter – a service if you give in.
This is completely separate from the tuition issue, and is not advice you’ve asked for at all so please forgive me if I’m going too far, but something else I’ve noticed from your posts is that over the years you have continually pressed your daughter to communicate with you or see you, and you’re still doing it. I can almost guarantee that such efforts will backfire: you see it as reaching out, but she sees it as your dismissal of her feelings (however warped and screwed up those feelings may be). The more you push, the more she’ll push back. I know it will hurt like hell, but you need to completely ignore her for a while. A long while. Take whatever solace and comfort you can in your relationship with the younger daughter, but leave the older one alone. You cannot force a relationship with her, and every time you try you’re just making it worse. So don’t offer the therapy or visits anymore; just say “no.” She has had three years to try and work things out with you, and she has shown absolutely no interest in doing so. Like all stubborn, willful children, she needs to be allowed to come to the “right” decision on her own – but as long as you’re hovering over her (figuratively, of course), pressing any opportunity for contact, her knee-jerk reaction will be to withdraw. Send her one last e-mail, maybe, explaining that you will leave her alone from this point on but that you will always be open to hearing from her (unless it’s for money), and then leave her alone. Like I said, I know that it will tear you up inside, but I really wonder if she is rejecting your overtures almost out of habit at this point. She needs to find out what life is really like without a father (when that father is loving and sincere, like you); you need to step back long enough for her to miss you.
That’s my completely unsolicited $0.02 … I hope you aren’t offended by it.
Hmm. I thought maybe you’d like to have the opinion of a teenager here.
Personally, given that she hasn’t even spoken to you in three years and doesn’t intend to speak to you even if you contributed a few thousand to her education (which I’m guessing is not close to the sum she asked for, but I think it’s mighty nice of you), I think she sounds as though she wants to use you, as your lawyer said, like an ATM. If you two were still on good terms (or, you know, speaking terms), I would expect you to contribute something. Not nearly as much as mom, who has a larger income and therefore an easier time producing money. Hell, even if you and your wife were still together, I wouldn’t expect you to pay for her entire education. Isn’t part of college getting a job and helping with your tuition and pocket money? That’s what I was taught. Of course, when I once mentioned I intended to help pay for my college education in front of one of my uncles, his eyes bugged out of his head and he said “I wish my daughter would say something like that”, so maybe I’m alone in this view. In any case, I don’t think you have any obligation to give her a dime. I would, though, discuss this with your younger daughter, and ask your exwife to agree not to bad mouth you in front of her.
Truthfully, you aren’t under any moral obligation to pay for her college education, especially considering she stopped talking to you. If I were one of her friends, and I heard about this situation, I would think much less of her. My best friend’s parents have been very upfront with her about her college education, and their main spin is that she’s on her own as soon as she turns eighteen. Her father keeps on pushing her academic standards because he wants he to get a scholarship or two, but I think it’s unlikely he’d shell out anything more than a few thousand a year of her scholarship didn’t cover the entire thing, if any. We’re hoping to test out this theory on her older brother when he graduates, but I’ve known her (and her parents) for fifteen years, and I don’t think they’re about to go back on their word. Yet she still talks with them, eats dinner with them, lives with them, and does her chores. I don’t see her protesting. What I do see her doing is attempting to save as much money as possible. (In this situation, I do think her parents should attempt to help her if she can’t meet payments, but this doesn’t apply to you at all.) Really, I think your daughter is being a big baby, and your wife isn’t helping.
I just hope that when it comes time for you to help with your younger daughter’s college tuition (which it seems, given the circumstances, you plan on doing), your exwife and her older sister won’t hold any animosity towards her.
How are you gonna make statements like this after hearing one side of the story? The tuition is one thing, but calling her willful and stubborn is ridiculous. It’s clear there is a lot of history there, and to assume she is the one at fault, or that anyone is at fault is wrong.
I know many of you disagree with me, but I think paying, and not making demands in return or causing turmoil, is the logical thing to do. First, there is a good chance he will lose his case, meaning he has to pay anyway, and has destroyed any hopes of having a decent relationship with her. In addition, he will probably have lowered his other daughter’s opinion of him, and will have spent money on his lawyer on top of the bill.
What happens when the other child wants to go to school, does he pay it? If he does, he will certainly not help the relationship between the children. Fighting this has no positive outcomes aside from saving money. If that’s his main concern, then he can do what he has to do. Paying the bill will help the situation in a lot of ways. It’s a gesture of good will, that might eventually open the lines of communication. It makes him look good in the eyes of his other daughter. But most importantly, it will result in his daughter getting a good education that she may have not otherwise gotten.
I think you should tell her, “You have made it abundantly clear that you do not want me as part of your life. I am acceding to your wishes.”
Other people have discussed the possible legalities of your situation and to me (not American, so unsure about the whole system there) it seems you have been given some good advice.
Just talking out of a hole in my head but here is my 2 cents.
It seems to me that mum and daughter and probably lawyers have all chatted amongst themselves. What do you think would happen if you sent a cheque directly to your daughter, for the whatever you are willing to contribute given both her animosity and your financial situaton?
Not an offer of money but a cheque made out to her…along with a letter explaining that you have sent the money because you love her, that her cutting you out has hurt you deeply and that you are doing all you CAN do to help her because you love her.
I don’t see that as buying her off, just showing her that you care despite her behaviour but giving her money directly (instead of through mum or lawyers) it may mean more to her.
Her behaviour to you as been hurtful and (to you) probably unacceptable but teenage girls are foul creatures who are perfectly capable of hurting themselves and those they love to make a point. She has had the help of your ex-wife. A double whammy. At the end of the day she is still the daughter you love and probably the daughter who loves you still (however unwilling she is to show that now). If you are the bigger person now chances are she will, in time, be the daughter you wish she was again.
At her age I thought my father was the biggest wanker on the planet. We didn’t talk for about 4 years (and my parents didn’t divorce…or even seperate until I was in my early 30’s) . We are now best of buddies, mostly because he never let my hating him get in the way of his loving me.
pseudotriton ruber ruber, what is your ex-wife’s take on the situation with your daughter? Has she given you any indication of what she feels is the problem? Was there a specific point that things broke down, like when you moved away or the beginning or end of a relationship you or your ex were involved in?
I’m in the process of divorce, been separated for a year and a half, and we have three kids (17 and 12 year old girls and a 4 yr old boy). One thing I will say for my Ex is that we still co-parent and discuss everything going on with the kids. We strive to have the same basic house rules with both parents, including carry over of any loss of privileges. And if the kids come to either one of us saying that the other parent did something that really had a negative impact on them, we’ll let the other know. Not the “Dad didn’t give me fifty dollars and pick up six of my best friends to go to the mall to get matching tongue piercings” stuff (like I’m going to say “Well, honey, you just call TWELVE of your friends and I’ll throw in a tattoo to go with those piercings. We’ll show that meany…”) but potentially really legitimate complaints get discussed between us. Have you been able to maintain any level of open discussion with your Ex?
That’s an interesting idea, Calm Kiwi. Thanks for offering it.
It would be a grand gesture (actually more like a three grand gesture), and it would clearly establish that I’m not about withholding the money or needing her to do all the repair work here, or do it first. I’ll have to think about it.
The downside, I guess, is that she may well see it as only a fraction of what she’s entitled to, and I could need that money to defray my legal bills, or any additional sums the court might rule I owe my ex- for tuition. (It might be ruled, for example, a gift that has nothing to do with college tuition. Maybe I should should write “for college tuition” on the check itself? I don’t know if that helps a whole lot.) Still, I could certainly afford to risk three grand to establish that this isn’t only about money. I’m just not quite sure that forking over a sum of money to establish that principle makes sense. As Marley23 correctly points out, this is more about about our relationship than it is about money. I do intend, as Kendraen Ideals surmises, to contribute what I can to my younger girl’s tuition, and in that light this grand gesture just takes away from my ability to do that when the times comes.
Don’t get me started.
Basically, she thinks I’m trash. In the early stages of the divorce settlements, she would ask for pretty much everything (“I get the four-bedroom house, I get the good car, I get the kids, I get your pension, I get the furniture, I get your book collection–oh, okay, you can take a few boxes of clothing, but be here by Thursday or I’m throwing that out, because I also now can get the closet space I’ve wanted for years, too–yippee!”) If I didn’t agree to her division? “See my lawyer.” If I thought that asking for the maximum allowable child support, plus medical bills plus full-time child care, was tough on my pocketbook (I was living out of my car for a while, and then out of a small rented room for years) ? “See my lawyer.” When I offered to put these issues before a mediator, in the interest of saving lawyer’s fees (I was paying those off for years, it turned out)? “No, that isn;t in my interests. See my lawyer.” When I observed that no one was profiting other than the lawyers here and any relationship we might salvage was being severely damaged by settling everything in court? “Too bad for you. I like it that way.”
One example will suffice: the court directled that we come to an agreement as to the extensive book collection we (mostly I) had built during our marriage. I proposed that she could divide it equitably (I wasn’t allowed to be in her house to do it) into two piles, however she liked–but I could choose which pile I’d take. Her response? “No, I’ll give you what I think is your fair share, and you’ll take it . Don’t like that? Spend a few thousand more wrangling in court. Ha, ha, ha.” She’s a vindictive, self-entitled, embittered woman who hates my guts and who sees nothing but justice in my daughter’s stance (I don’t doubt that she’s told her misinformation about me or about our divorce to help her along–to break the logjam of litigation, I conceded that I had been “cruel” to my ex-wife rather than contest the allegation, for example. I’m sure she can spin that language to turn me into Torquemada.) She doesn’t, in a word, see my daughter as being deprived of a father who loves her–she sees my daughter as gloriously self-liberated from a sadist’s grip.
It doesn’t have to be a 3 grand gesture though. Perhaps a $1500 gesture made out to her, with a letter . You said you had emailed her but emails are never as good as seeing dads handwriting…and reading and rereading it. Email is quick and easy but letters you can keep. I know! I have a few from my dad (ranging from terse to remorseful to ‘oh get over it!’ but the best ones just said he loved me) when I was at my teenage-bitchiness-best. I left the country at 17 to avoid my dad. While still loathing him, I ferreted his ocassional letters away. They still make me cry when I dust them off and as I said we are BEST budies now.
You are right about considering the downside, it may happen. But for the sake of of relationship with her I think it is worth considering the upside.
A letter adressed to her…so mum doesn’t see it first, a lawyer has no say…just a dad trying to talk to his daughter. Her sitting there with a cheque and dads words in her hands (yes money isn’t love but neither is fighting about money) maybe she can see you afresh. Maybe she won’t but isn’t that worth trying?
At the end of the day it is money you may end up having to give her. Jump in feet first and show your daughter that you are doing it because you love her not because her mum thinks you are a tightarse and the lawyers made you.
And even if you don’t send the cheque, send her a letter not an email. Dads may sometimes be wankers but we love them anyway. Teenage girls are frequently bitches but you love them anyway.