I realize that the eldest kid gets the brunt (supposedly) and maybe, like in my family, the youngest was just left to fend for herself and make up her own mind etc. but I am puzzled.
Ihave no doubt that your ex is a bitch–divorce takes many women that way, men too.
but to my mind, that degree of toxicity is all encompassing.
Just my opinion, if my Dad were to have sent me a check as suggested, that would have pissed me off even more–I think you are throwing fuel to the fire doing that. Also, they (ex) may say-see? He’s got money…I’ll take him to court and get the rest for you honey.
I think now I suggest just shutting down on her. Write a letter that you keep and don’t send, so that the situation does not get distorted by time and memory. Keep it to show to her when she is older etc.
Different temperament. She’s always been her own person, of a very independent spirit since infancy–one of the traits I admire most in her, even when it didn’t suit my own short-term objectives.
My older girl was very close to me until she was her younger sister’s present age (which scares me no end, a fear I try not to display too openly.)
My ex-wife had issues with her own father that didn’t erupt until her mid-teens–as in so much else, where she’s tried to turn my kids into clones of herself, her campaign to turn my younger daughter away from me may just be starting.
I’m hoping that item 1) will hold, and that no amount of propaganda will ever persuade my loyal little darling that her dad doesn’t love her. But I feel that all I can do in that regard is to continue being a good dad to her–carrying on and turning every day into a psychodrama will just create an atmosphere no one would look forward to living in, so I’m just going to have to put many of these issues aside as I spend some weeks with my younger girl this summer and try to make them pleasant weeks.
I am serious. Ultimately his daughter is still his daughter. Who stands to profit if the costs of litigation to not pay a cent are equivalent to the tuition? His lawyer. Who stands to benefit if he pays the tuition? His daughter. He may be on the outs with his daughter but ultimately she is his flesh-and-blood and he claims to still love her. I realise that everyone is angry for pseudotron ruber ruber here but as someone who actually has experience in family law litigation and has seen personally what it does to families I suggest that rather than relying on the opinions of internet strangers who are morally outraged on his behalf and urging him to spend money not to spend any money-that pseudotron step back and think very, very carefully about the options available to him and the consequences of them all. Because I can assure you that when it comes down to going to trial in these situations-the victories ring hollow no matter which side prevails.
I just want to add a disclaimer, pseudotron, that this isn’t legal advice and I suggest that you speak with your own lawyer about what options are available beyond trial.
Incidentally, pseudotron, I do feel that what your daughter has done to you is completely unacceptable. I just wanted to point out the other side-that ultimately you also have to consider that age/distance from the mother may bring out some sense of perspective and need for reconciliation in her and that you ought to consider what side of the matter you are willing to err on-whether to retain the possibility of that or to practically banish it forever. I am not in any way suggesting that you get taken for a ride-but it’s in your best interest to look good in front of the judge and you can ask your attorney to come up with something other than fighting it out in court.
Gee, aren’t all of our statements the result of hearing one side of the story?
So what? All I have to go on is what I’ve heard, and the memory of once being an 18-year-old who was at odds with her father, so that’s where I speak from. I can make whatever assumptions I want … if I’m wrong, I’m wrong. Every single person who has made a reply in this thread has made one assumption or another; it’s the nature of the beast.
No, SHE has destroyed any hopes of having a decent relationship with him. Why is the burden of their relationship on his shoulders in this case?
If the younger daughter’s opinion of him was influenced by events with the older daughter, she already wouldn’t be speaking to him. And again, I don’t believe this should be about money – it’s about the principle of the thing, and teaching the older daughter a lesson that she can’t learn in school.
If the younger daughter is still speaking to him when it’s time for her to go to college, and he helps pay for it, it won’t be comparable to the situation with his older daughter. At that time the “children” will be 18 and 21; their relationship will be in their hands alone.
Gee, except for what several of us have already mentioned about teaching the older daughter that there are consequences to her actions, and that it’s not ok to manipulate people who care about you. Why is the money so much more important in your eyes?
He has made several gestures of good will over the past three years. And both daughter and mother have already made it clear that there is no communication on the horizon.
I disagree: I think it makes him look like a putz – at best, a pushover. How can the younger daughter respect that?
You make it sound like if he doesn’t pay for half of the remaining tuition she automatically can’t go to college at all, anywhere, ever. She could get student loans, she could have chosen a cheaper college, etc. This money is not the difference between a six-figure salary and a life of saying “paper or plastic?” Tons of people get through school without financial assistance from their parents; why should she be any different just because dad is able to pay, especially when she has made it abundantly clear that she doesn’t want him in her life in any other way?
Again, it’s not about money (I’m starting to feel like a broken record, here) – and I don’t agree that his daughter will benefit if he pays the tuition.
So the only reason his daughter might consider ever speaking to him again in the future will be because he paid for part of her tuition? If she “gains perspective” she will completely understand why he refused to give in to her selfishness. True reconciliation has nothing to do with money. That, I say from experience.
I say you fight it on principle. I know that’s hard, because you love your daughters (obviously) and care for what’s best for them. However, college tuition isn’t what’s best for your oldest, learning that pushing people around won’t get you what you want is.
Making your contribution contingent upon a couple of joint counselling sessions is not unreasonable. It shows you are genuinely trying to repair the relationship.
Here’s what happens if you just fork over the money:
Mother to daughter (or vice versa): “Ha! The asshole caved in.”
How do you feel about that?
Your daughter seems to be well on her way to turning into a bitter vindictive person like her mother. Perhaps going away to college will put enough distance between them that your daughter will realize that living that way is not a happy life. For both your sakes, I hope so.
I’m a divorced dad whose daughter just finished her first year of college. Fortunately, I have an excellent relationship with her, and a workable one with her mother, so at least we’re not doing power struggles like you are.
One thing you should do is review the details of what sort of financial aid was offered to your daughter. There is a federally standardized formula for calculating the expected parents’ contribution. In the absolute worst case if you lose all of your arguments, you should pay no more than half that amount, **not **half the difference between scholarships and total cost. The student is normally expected to make some contribution from her own resources, and contribute to part of the costs through student loans and work-study. If she wants to go to the most expensive school, she darned well ought to be willing to contribute what she can.
My divorce settlement contained no provisions about college expenses, at my own insistence. As far as I’m concerned, any financial obligation I have toward my daughter now that she’s 18 is strictly between the two of us, and does not legally involve my ex in any way. In other words, I’m helping my daughter for her own sake and because I want to, not because I owe it to my ex.
As for any moral obligation you might feel, you’ve given her the opportunity to attend the U you work at for free, which she passed up. Your offer to contribute $3k is more than generous under the circumstances and the strings you attached are not unreasonable. If she refuses to accept that, that’s her problem. I don’t see any reason to give in to the extortion her mother is tryinmg to pull on you.
I doubt that anything you do now will fix your relationship with her; sounds like you toxic ex has poisoned the situation pretty thoroughly. Hopefully in time she’ll get some perspective and see the light.
This is from a daughter who has not had the best relationship with her father, so feel free to ignore me.
My father has always been controlling and thought of his children as property. He thought that by dictating my and my brother’s lives, that we would turn out better people for that. He never listened to our opinions, he frequently criticized us - but he thought he was helping us and was acting like a good father by being an asshole.
Whenever I told him I needed to make my own decisions (although they were sometimes short-sighted and uninformed), he told me to my face “you’re my daugher, I own you, so you will do as I say”. He told me that if I didn’t do exactly what he told me, that he wouldn’t pay for college.
So my brother and I followed his word to the letter. We studied hard, got good grades, didn’t see friends often (you know, because seeing friends afterschool means we’ll be drunken drugdealers who whore ourselves out to the public - another thing that he said would happen if I was able to be as free as I wanted), basically we were tied down.
When it came time, he paid for college, but he also called at 6:30am to tell me that I shouldn’t buy printer ink from a certain company because I’d be wasting money and would further contribute to my stupidity by doing so. He would also call to ask me what was wrong with me that I wasn’t in class at that time (sorry I didn’t have class at 8am everyday!). He did all of this because he really thought he was helping me be a better person.
I’m not saying that you are like this. People may think they are doing something in the child’s best interest, but the way that they do it may not be what the child thinks is best. The way that you talked to her may have been seen as hostile - I thought my dad was hostile, but now I know that he’s just loud.
My dad paid for college, and it has taken me many years and many conversations with friends, but I understand him more. I realize that he was doing what he thought was best. Even though he pays for everything, I realize how much money he has paid for me and my brother and I understand that through his actions, that he loves us. He’s just gruff in his show of affection and love.
This is just to show that even if you do have to give in and pay, things may change. This is my way of giving you a bit of hope that she may turn around and realize that you’re a caring parent - you just didn’t parent the way that she wanted.
pseudotriton ruber ruber, In my opinion, you hsould kweep trying to re-open communication with your eldest daughter but pay her tuition. The reasoning is, if you don’t your ex wife and eldest daughter will gang up on the youngest daughter and try to convince her of how horrible you are. She may be a strong and independent thnker but they are with her alot more of the time than you are and they will eventually wear her down. As manipulative and toxic as the other two are sounding they will use every opportunity to cast you in a bad light, I can tell you even adults have trouble standing up to that.
Penchan, pseudotriton ruber ruber may be a lousy dad (we don’t know), but he has offered repeatedly to go into joint counselling with his daughter. That means he is willing to listen to her side and willing to work on a resolution to their problems (right now, he doesn’t even know what they are). This doesn’t sound like your dad at all.
My SO has a daughter about to go to college next year, so I ran this by him. He said if it were him in your circumstance, he’d tell her to go pound sand. And that’s not an uncaring dad, there. (He’s actually offered to help pay for tuition for my son, when he’s old enough, and that’s 15 years away.) (And yes, I’m contributing to his daughters’ education, too.)
My feeling is much like some previous posters, which is that she needs to realize that the way she treats people has consequences. I think that may be a more important lesson than anything she might learn in college.
The real issue here is that the ex hates the OPer’s guts and wants to make him suffer. Embittered spouses can be extremely manipulative – I’ve seen it happen first hand.
Here’s my advice. I’d write a letter to my ex-wife and copy my daughters on it (after my attorney reviews it):
Dear Ex-Wife,
I am writing this to respond to your complaint re our daughters’ college education. It is my opinion that I am under no legal obligation to continue to support our children once they turn 18, nor do I believe any parent is morally obligated to pay for his adult child’s college, no matter what the circumstances.
Nonetheless, as their father I love them both unconditionally and am willing to voluntarily shoulder some of the burden. I have reviewed my financial situation and am able to give each daughter $x per year to use towards attaining a college degree at whatever university she wishes to attend. I wish it were more, but it’s the most I can comfortably absorb.
There is an important stipulation with this offer. If you continue with this lawsuit and the judge rules in my favor, I will be forced to subtract any attorneys’ fees from above-mentioned amount. I have a finite amount of discretionary income and I simply cannot afford to pay thousands of dollars in attorneys’ fees AND thousands of dollars in tuition payments.
I would rather see my money, and yours, go towards our daughters’ future instead of towards legal bills.
Sincerely yours,