Thanks - I learned something!
How offensive is it to Western Europeans when people originally from North America circumcise their male infants? Is it an assimilation issue?
The fact that American traffic signs are incomprehensible to foreigners and immigrants is a problem with the traffic signs, not with the foreigners and immigrants. Much of the rest of the world follows more or less the UN’s international standard for traffic signange.
Obviously untrue or there wouldn’t have been any Indians for the Europeans to find when they showed up. Nor even if that was true would it justify the Native American genocide.
Diseases did that, Europeans (or Americans) put the final nail on the coffin. Sorry, but Native Americans were far from being angels, that doesnt excuse what has been done to them though.
Well, there’s encourage and encourage. Some would say that Hitler’s policies encouraged Jews to leave Europe.
What kind of encouragement do you have in mind?
My husband (who is from Europe) and I just talked about it as different customs. He wasn’t offended by the custom, he’d just never heard it was common in the US and thought it was WEIRD.
We decided not to circumcise our sons, and it is getting less common in the US anyway, so it was no big deal. Something like 50% of boys in the US are circumcised and 50% aren’t so it wasn’t a huge matter anyway.
Offensive? Not really. Weird? Definitely. Wrong? Yup, I prefer my penis the way Nature made for me, and in a civilized society there’s no rational reason to do it. As bad as female circumcision without anaesthetics? Absolutely not. Would I do it to my kids? Absolutely not.
Why do you do it? To make masturbation more difficult?
There’s a study somewhere that shows a very strong correlation between circumcision and health insurance coverage for it. Basically, if their insurance covers it as part of routine post-natal care, most people (in the US) have it done. If it’s out of pocket, they don’t – and fewer and fewer policies cover it these days. It would be an interesting bit of historical research as to why it was normally included in the first place. And also – how prevalent was it before most people had health insurance at all.
Yes, no, no. And the first one is a yes just because not knowing English greatly limits an immigrants opportunities, so they should be encouraged to learn it for the same reason parents encourage their kids to go to college. In the long run, it’ll help them.
If anything, I worry about the reverse though. Accommodating immigrants and allowing them to enjoy their customs without being hassled is fine, but sometimes it seems like people push too far for changing mainstream society to accept immigrants. Most immigrants came to America because it is better than their homeland in one way or another. There’s a certain point where you have to ask, are we being accepting and tolerant of immigrants or are we instituting the exact parts of their culture that made their homeland such a shithole that they moved here to begin with?
Then I run into some racist pinhead who thinks every brown person is a wetback stealing janitor jobs that could be filled by honest hard working American folk, as if honest hard working American folk really mind not cleaning other peoples toilets or something. And I go ‘fuck it, let the immigrants push for the same shithole policies all they want, it’s not like they’ll make anything worse than this jackass already has’.
Interesting thread. In general, I think assimilation is a good thing.
Take the case of people who never assimilated-like the Greek enclaves in the cities of the Ottoman Empire…that didn’t lead to good results.:eek:
Immigrants are not children. I’m fine letting them judge the value of assimilation. After all, they’ve been themselves their whole lives, and I will never be them. What do I know about what is good for them?
They need to learn English. More than that though, they need to learn to read, period.
I live with two immigrants. My SO speaks three languages. He learned English as soon as he could, really pushing himself by taking classes and getting jobs with English speakers. He isn’t ashamed or anything, he just knew the value. It’s benefited him, no doubt about it.
His brother doesn’t speak a word of English and barely understands it. He can’t find work. He isolates himself and purposely avoids stores/restaurants where he’d have to deal with English. I don’t know how he’d survive if it wasn’t for us helping him out.
But for both of them, one thing has held them both back. They didn’t go to school. My SO can barely read Spanish, much less English. His brother doesn’t even know how to write his own name. It’s just not that common to go to school where they’re from. It’s not just Mexico, it’s some little area in the middle of nowhere where everyone gets up early to work in the fields until sundown. This starts when they are children so there’s no time for school. We have found that some of our friends from the same area who have come to the US and started a family don’t really value education for their children either. I’m surprised by this myself, because you’d think they’d want better for their children. But no, they expect their sons to quit school around age twelve and go stand out there at the day labor spot right next to them, to bring home their share. Their daughters I think they’d gladly marry off by age fourteen if they find the right suitor.
So if appreciating a good education is assimilation, I guess I’d say assimilate!
What are “American manners”? How does the American middle class act in public?
In Detroit we have pole town, Hantramck, which has Polish language newspapers, bakeries, restaurants and fests. It has gone on for many generations and it bothers nobody. We have Mexican town which is another community that caters to the Latinos. We also have an Irish area and a German area. They have coexisted in Detroit for generations. Who cares?
We also have the largest Muslim area outside the middle east. No we do not have Sharia Law as Angle said. You can go to some very good restaurants there. In these areas, people who brought over their parents or grandparents can choose to assimilate or not to. For some learning a new language is very difficult. They are just more comfortable staying around people with their background. That does not mean they are plotting against America.
I’d say that communication is probably the most important thing. Right now, it benefits immigrants to be as fluent as possible in English, not only so that they can get better job opportunities but also so that their children are not disadvantaged when it comes to learning “proper” English.
But eventually, Americans are going to need to become more bilingual. It’s already a skill that employers are looking for on resumes. It always impresses me when news reporters are able to hunt down a “man on the street” in a poor village halfway around the world who can speak pretty good English, while our typical “man on the street” can barely speak English, let alone another language. Spanish or Mandarin lessons should be added to the roster of extracurricular activities that kids are already participating in. We need to get out of the mentality that the world will always lean our way.
The other stuff? Style of dress, religion, food, and family practices? As long as it’s lawful and/or not affecting me adversely, I don’t care what people do.
What is American?
Once you answer this then we can have a debate.
They act the with middle class American manners.
This is a bit like asking what accent Americans have. They have American accents. Just because the manners and accent are the same as yours, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. It does mean that you don’t notice them.
If you ever spend time abroad outside a western country you will notice the differences in manners. For example, do you queue for tickets, or do you try to push to the service counter? Do you spit in the street while talking to someone? Haggle over prices by telling the sales assistant that they are mad, greedy or trying to take advantage of you? If you are male and want to know something from a woman, do you ignore her and ask the male standing right beside her?
The list of things which are exceptionally bad manners in middle class America, yet are expected elsewhere, is huge. Of course there are middle class American manners.
Oh, good. I’m sure you can explain what they are, then, since apparently immigrants are expected to learn them.
Except that there are lots of different American accents.
I think it’s a legit question of the OP. What does he mean when he says that immigrants should act in public like middle class Americans?
Also, is it OK if they act like upper class Americans in public? How about lower class Americans? What if they are lower class people, but act like upper class people?
<insert obligatory Borg joke here>