Should Minorities Be Encourage to Assimiliate

[JRDelirious]

@John_Mace

I think it’s a legit question of the OP. What does he mean when he says that immigrants should act in public like middle class Americans?

Also, is it OK if they act like upper class Americans in public? How about lower class Americans? What if they are lower class people, but act like upper class people?

Heck, that’s even a line of questioning that can be posed about the American-born in those different classes, isn’t it?

On the Immigrant issue, I’m with Der’s first post. It is imperative that an immigrant quickly become able to converse with and interact in everyday public environments with the mainstream community, including both acquiring language skills and adapting to what are the general social norms and expectations, if a better life is expected. The new and 1st-gen immigrants should make an effort to integrate and that effort should be reciprocated positively. Meaning that the encouragement to integrate should NOT take the form of institutionalized hostility to, or derision of, those parts of the old ways that do not harm third parties. IOW: “We will make it worth your while to fit in where it’s important” , not “We will make you sorry to be different at all”.

Assimilation, meanwhile, will take care of itself with the passage of time; you can’t ram it down people’s throats any more than you can immunize completely against it* or against it going both ways*. By the time it happens even the original mainstream cultures will have evolved from where they used to be anyway. I often mention to fellow 'Ricans who fret about it, that since I’m currently not speaking Taino or Mozarabic or Latin, or pledging my loyalty to their Catholic Majesties, I have no standing to demand that my great-grandchildren be Spanish-speaking Christians singing “Verde Luz” calling themselves “Boricua”.

[Boyo_Jim]

Thank Og they don’t have to look like middle class people of the 70s. I’ve seen too many leisure suits.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@aruvqan

There was no real single american indian culture.

Never said there was.

The closest thing to it would have been the loose coalition of tribes roughly called the 5 Nations which existed basically in New York State and lopping into a small area of Canada, Vermont, Massachusets, Connecticut and Pennsylvania as tribes moved around their normal ranges. It was more a NATO type organization, not a single entity like the Mass Bay Colony.

The point is they all wound up facing the same type of ethnic cleaning, massacres, bio warfare and rape and pillage as the next tribe, at the hands of the “immigrants” from Europe.

We did what the indians themselves were doing anyway.

Hold up, who’s “we”? Half of my ancestors immigrated here from Africa (why in God’s name they did that, I do not for the life of me know); the other half were slaves of the white man. “We” didn’t do jack monkey squat to the native Americans.

That having been established, let’s talk about what the indians themselves “were doing anyway”. Were they ethnically cleansing or driving one another into extinction? Were they handing out blankets infected with Smallpox, like some folks in Canada were?

If European immigrants had not come to America can you reasonably say here that the Native American population of North America would have been reduced to anything close to what they are now or displaced so dramatically?

If you look into the history of just New England itself, tribes had a much different viewpoint of land ownership, and did war between each other for control of areas to use the resources present. As a rough example, the tribe that currently lives on the reservation that is where Foxwoods Casino is presently located isn’t the tribe that was originally there 300 years ago.

And how much of that is due to European immigrants-turned-conquerors forcing tribes to move?

Besides, it really doesnt matter. After 200 years of WASP domination, we are the dominant culture of the US

Ah yes, conquerors are keepers, the conquered are weepers. I guess your culture is dominant because you wiped the other side out, right?

Social Darwinists über alles!

I wonder sometimes why you guys are so paranoid of Al Qaeda when they only MIGHT aspire to do what Europeans have already done to the Americas, Australia, and several places in Africa.

“It’s okay for us Europeans but not anyone else!”

Yeah, I’m now opposed to “assimilating” into anything. Keep your culture. At least these new non-assimilating immigrants aren’t raping, pillaging, smallpoxing and mass murdering like the ancestors of the culture that wants them to “integrate”.

[Der_Trihs]

Le Jacquelope, your analogy doesn’t work. People who show up looking just to find a job and live their own lives are not the same as imperialistic, slaveowning genocidal religious fanatics. Also; I don’t think you realize that if we do buy your equating of the European conquest-and-genocide with present day immigration, that’s not an argument for the toleration of immigrants, but one for the most rabid anti-immigrant xenophobes being right.

I don’t think you intend to argue for the systematic slaughter of everyone trying to immigrate, for treating them like an invading army; but that’s what you are actually effectively doing.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Der_Trihs

Le Jacquelope, your analogy doesn’t work. People who show up looking just to find a job and live their own lives are not the same as imperialistic, slaveowning genocidal religious fanatics. Also; I don’t think you realize that if we do buy your equating of the European conquest-and-genocide with present day immigration, that’s not an argument for the toleration of immigrants, but one for the most rabid anti-immigrant xenophobes being right.

I don’t think you intend to argue for the systematic slaughter of everyone trying to immigrate, for treating them like an invading army; but that’s what you are actually effectively doing.

I’m not equating people who show up looking for jobs and to live their own lives with imperialistic slave-owning etc etc.

I’m saying that this current dominant culture that screams for people to assimilate into, is itself a culture that refused to assimilate into the dominant cultures that existed here before.

The (read: evil aka brown) immigrants who come here and (hypothetically speaking) refuse to assimilate into THIS culture right now, are no worse than the European immigrants who came here before and refused to assimilate into the “THIS cultures” that dominated centuries ago. In fact, these hypothetically non-assimilating immigrants of today are much nicer: they aren’t raping, mass murdering, ethnically cleansing or bio-weaponing us to death. (Okay, well they are breeding with us which some people would qualify as a bio weapon, lol!)

[Der_Trihs]

@Le_Jacquelope

I’m saying that this current dominant culture that screams for people to assimilate into, is itself a culture that refused to assimilate into the dominant cultures that existed here before.

No, it’s not. If it WAS the same culture it would deal with the question of immigration by slaughtering or enslaving the immigrants. I’m certainly no fan of modern America but it isn’t composed of the same kind of casually genocidal, slaveowning monsters who existed back then. They would, for example, have killed every last person in Afghanistan and Iraq in order to settle those lands with Americans instead. Repellent as modern America is, it isn’t that bad.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Der_Trihs

No, it’s not. If it WAS the same culture it would deal with the question of immigration by slaughtering or enslaving the immigrants. I’m certainly no fan of modern America but it isn’t composed of the same kind of casually genocidal, slaveowning monsters who existed back then. They would, for example, have killed every last person in Afghanistan and Iraq in order to settle those lands with Americans instead. Repellent as modern America is, it isn’t that bad.

Well then THIS culture refused to assimilate into the previous culture of Manifest Destiny, which itself refused to assimilate into the previous many cultures of Native Americans.

Which gets back to my original point that America is an evolving culture; and to tell other law-abiding folks to assimilate is… well… downright odd.

[Alessan]

@Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor

<insert obligatory Borg joke here>

Actually, when you think about it, it’s not a bad analogy. After all, the Borg say “your distinctiveness will be added to our own”; this means that when the Borg assimilate their victims, they also change themselves. They’re a big, cubical, homicidal melting pot.

[BrainGlutton]

@E-Sabbath

It’ll be done in three generations, one way or another, anyhow.

The Irish have been here longer than that and they still can’t speak English, or any human language. Ever hear Bill Donohue try to talk? And don’t get me started about the Italians.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

For the record, I am a minority immigrant. I speak English as my first language, and I have absolutely no problem with other immigrants being encouraged to do so.

However, this is supposedly the Land of the Free.

I get that freedom doesn’t necessarily include “freedom to impose Sharia law”, or “freedom to blow up Federal buildings”, but it certainly includes the freedom to retain one’s culture (or to adopt somebody else’s, for that matter). Doesn’t it?

After all, if we’re going to impose the values of the American middle class on everyone, where does it stop? Should they all be encouraged to convert to Christianity? To eat Salisbury steak on Wednesdays? To watch American Idol?

[RickJay]

@Le_Jacquelope

That having been established, let’s talk about what the indians themselves “were doing anyway”. Were they ethnically cleansing or driving one another into extinction? Were they handing out blankets infected with Smallpox, like some folks in Canada were?

Such a thing never happened in Canada. There is some evidence that a few such blankets might have been handed out in Fort Pitt during the Seven Years War, and there is no doubt at all that it was at least strongly considered, but Fort Pitt (well, the one where it happened) was in Pennsylvania.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Should immigrants from other countries or ethnic groups with distinctinve cultures be encourage to assimilate by speaking standard English,

Absolutely. I think it should be more than just encouraged.

adopting American manners and largely acting in public same the American middle class?

Ermm, not sure what you mean by that.

[godix]

@even_sven

Immigrants are not children. I’m fine letting them judge the value of assimilation. After all, they’ve been themselves their whole lives, and I will never be them. What do I know about what is good for them?

Statistics and logic. Not speaking English limits job opportunities. Limited job opportunities mean that immigrants are, generally, forced into the lower economic classes and stuck there. OTOH, immigrants who know or learn English have more opportunities and can improve their economic situation more. Statistics do bear this out also.

Or we can go with personal stories: How many immigrants do you know of who worked hard an became wealthy in the US but never learned English? I can go to Home Depot and point out dozens of immigrants who don’t know English, work hard, and never become wealthy.

Also note: there is a difference between encouragement and forcing. As long as no one is flat out required to do it, I see no problem with suggesting they should do it.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Bear in mind that many of the immigrants hanging out at Home Depot may be illiterate in Spanish, too. I don’t think anyone is really arguing the value of speaking English, but expectations should be reasonable.

[godix]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Bear in mind that many of the immigrants hanging out at Home Depot may be illiterate in Spanish, too. I don’t think anyone is really arguing the value of speaking English, but expectations should be reasonable.

No one is arguing about the value of speaking English?

Although, yes, the point of being illiterate in Spanish is valid. Although I was concerned mostly with speaking rather than writing. Although literacy is vital as well for getting out of the lower economic class.

[even_sven]

@godix

I can go to Home Depot and point out dozens of immigrants who don’t know English, work hard, and never become wealthy.

It seems so simple, but it’s not.

A lot of day laborers are not here to “live the American dream.” I’ve met many, many people who are here seasonally without any intension of becoming wealthy in America. Instead, they spend a few months in minimal living conditions and saving their money, and when they return to Mexico (or Guatemala or wherever) that money goes a lot further and they can use it to start a nest egg, buy property, or simply support their family a bit better than they could have if they had stayed at home. It’s not that bad of money, either. Day laborers from Home Depot run $10-$20 an hour. That’s well over twice the Mexican minimum wage and infinitely more than you’d make if you can’t find a job. Why would you waste your time at school when you can make enough money in months to carry you and your family through the year? Why would you aspire to an American suburb when you can spend a fraction on that on a really nice house back home with your family and friends?

Doesn’t seem like a bad plan, huh? It’s not. That’s one reason why there are so many American retirees in Mexico.

The appropriateness of this form of immigration is another debate. The point here is that people usually have some reason for what they do. This may not be immediately apparent to outsiders, but usually it’s there. I tend to believe that people who have lived their lives, day in and day out, for the entirety of their lives probably know more about what’s good for them than some guy who likely doesn’t know them, has never been them, and is basically guessing at their life based on glimpses from his car window as he drives by them in the parking lot.

[godix]

@even_sven

It seems so simple, but it’s not.

A lot of day laborers are not here to “live the American dream.” I’ve met many, many people who are here seasonally without any intension of becoming wealthy in America.

I’ve met many that were here to live in this country, and hopefully prosper. Also, if the majority of illegal immigration is as you describe, then why is there even an argument about a path to citizenship since apparently you feel no Mexican wants to become a citzen?

We can toss around contradicting personal stories all week long, but in the end it boils down to this: I believe a basic ability to communicate in the dominate language of whatever country an immigrant chooses to go to will give the immigrant better prospects than being unable to communicate to the majority of the country. As such, I believe English should be encouraged in people who immigrate to the US. I also believe immigrants should be encouraged in education and literacy if they need as well, for the exact same reasons. If the immigrant chooses not to, for example if they’re here for the summer and going back home, alright. Their choice. I never said round them up and force them to speak English.

If you disagree, that’s fine, but unless you have some major cites showing that not speaking the dominate language of the country you’re in has no baring on finding a job, I’m gonna go with common sense here and guess that when you speak to a hiring manager it might help if you talk to him in the language he understands.

[Der_Trihs]

@godix

Or we can go with personal stories: How many immigrants do you know of who worked hard an became wealthy in the US but never learned English? I can go to Home Depot and point out dozens of immigrants who don’t know English, work hard, and never become wealthy.

The vast majority of immigrants and native born citizens who know English and work hard never become wealthy either. Yes, English will help but if their motive is to become wealthy it’s pretty much certain they’ll be disappointed whether they learn English or not, or work hard or not.

[even_sven]

@godix

Also, if the majority of illegal immigration is as you describe, then why is there even an argument about a path to citizenship since apparently you feel no Mexican wants to become a citzen?

That’s in no way what I said, and you know it. Obviously, as a Californian, I know many “Mexicans” are interested in citizenship.

I’m saying there are many paths, many motivations, many goals and many reasons for doing what people do. Just because you don’t understand why someone makes the choice they make, doesn’t mean they don’t have a good reason for it.

[furt]

@E-Sabbath

Yeah, so what, Magellan. Same thing’s been true in Chinatowns the country over, and up in Wisconsin, people used to spend their whole life speaking German.

I knew a guy in college whose mother immigrated from Korea, lived in Chicago’s Koreatown, shopped at local markets, read local newspapers, watched imported videos and got along for years without speaking more than a dozen words of English. Everything that involved the outside world, her husband or kids took care of.
When my friend spoke about her life and her horizons, he got sad.