The believers clearly know that their religions have no factual evidence for them; that’s why they demand it be taken on faith.
They can’t handle being taught blatant lies about history and politics; much like religion, they tend to grow up to be irrationally dedicated to those lies.
And religion isn’t “debatable”; it’s flat out blatant nonsense.
You said “blatant lies,” not statements that have no factual evidence.
That makes sense to me. I was asking gonzomax why he signed out a particular kind of lie.
Gee, that statement seems highly debatable to me. I seem to recall you’ve debated it with people in the past.
The beliefs themselves are… well, they’re whackadoodle but as you say religion as a whole tends to have a whackadoodle quality to it, by definition.
Their practices however are particularly vile - segregating people from their families and forced isolation, blackmail, badgering, pseudo-brainwashing sessions and don’t you dare try and leave the cult because that’s when they get real nasty. They will *thoroughly *fuck your life.
If we are going to start destroying religious organizations, I think we should start with Westboro.
Statements with no evidence that violate physical laws, are logically contradictory and violate known historical fact are blatant lies if anything is.
Because they are irrational (and other reasons I can’t mention in GD). Obviously I meant “not debatable” in the sense that one side, namely theirs, is blatantly in the wrong. All you are doing is trying to redefine the term “debatable” so that religion is privileged. If I said that “the nonexistence of Santa Claus isn’t debatable” I doubt you’d leap to the same kind of defense of any Santa believers who showed up.
The way to start on something like this is to not single out the celebrities of the cult but rather to out the former members who have lost homes, husbands, friends and family due to scientology crap.
Thing is, that’s already been done by undercover investigative shows and documentarians, and the snowball hasn’t gotten any bigger.
People have been becoming more aware of some of the snide tactics. Wasn’t there a school with some kind of job fair or club fair and a scientology tent was up disguised as meditation or something like that?
Yes. This is what separates them from mainstream religions in America and I believe it is a real stretch to draw an equivalency between the two. Also, bringing up the Inquisition is absurd. That happened 500 years ago.
It doesn’t sound very different from “Jesus camps” and forced “therapy” to “cure” children of homosexuality. Both of which have been known to end in fatalities.
I also mentioned that Islam proscribes death for apostates. Any response to that? If we were making a bigger list I could mention the abuse of thousands of children by Roman Catholic priests. That’s not doctrine, of course, but doctrine allowed it to continue - the RCC doesn’t think its priests should be subject to secular law. And like I said, a lot of religious groups practice shunning just like Scientology does (if you leave the faith, you’re dead to them). Scientology might be worse than mainstream religions in the West, but its worst practices are not that different from those of other religious groups. I think if you talk to Dopers who have came from fundamentalist families or extreme sects and left the fold, you’ll find their experiences are not that different from those of ex-Scientologists.
Exactly. None of which is to say this stuff is OK- just that it’s hard to justify some kind of ban on Scientology without a ban on other religions, and that’s something most people won’t even consider.
:dubious: And then our Thetan Overlords will find some other way to supply their diet of souls. Don’t rock the boat!
I’m currently reading A Piece of Blue Sky. It’s a LOT worse than just being sued. Look up “Operation Freakout” and “Fair Game”. Look up the Sea Org and how they punish people who make mistakes. Even small children.
Note: I’m not saying it should be banned, but the idea that, “oh, all religions are equally bad!”
As I said in a previous thread:
L. Ron Hubbard was a known fraud who came up with this crap specifically to make money. He lied about his own background, he was a criminal, and he screwed his own family over. I’m not defending abuses by other religions, BUT, it seems around here that the only religions that exist are ultra fundamentalists. Which isn’t true.
Scientology isn’t really a religion so much as a money-making scam disguised as a religion. I doubt Hubbard even believed in it himself.
I think those stories are false. That doesn’t make them deliberate lies.
While I share your general opinion of religion, I’m not trying to redefine the term debatable. I’m pointing out you can’t start from the point that it’s false and then declare that it’s not debatable because it’s false. That’s assuming the conclusion. And none of this is specific to Scientology, which makes me think it’s a better subject for another thread.
I’m currently reading A Piece of Blue Sky. It’s a LOT worse than just being sued. Look up “Operation Freakout” and “Fair Game”. Look up the Sea Org and how they punish people who make mistakes. Even small children.
Note: I’m not saying it should be banned, but the idea that, “oh, all religions are equally bad!”
As I said in a previous thread:
L. Ron Hubbard was a known fraud who came up with this crap specifically to make money. He lied about his own background, he was a criminal, and he screwed his own family over. I’m not defending abuses by other religions, BUT, it seems around here that the only religions that exist are ultra fundamentalists. Which isn’t true.
Scientology isn’t really a religion so much as a money-making scam disguised as a religion. I doubt Hubbard even believed in it himself.
They’re definitely a cult and they’ve definitely got some fucked up practices.
(And no, I don’t condone, “re-orientation therapy”. That should be outlawed too, so don’t even go there. Nor do I condone so-called female circumcision. There are always parts of religions that shouldn’t be tolerated. Scientology just happens to be an organization that’s more like the Mafia than a religion.)
Priests committing child molestation is not a manditory part of the Catholic doctrine. Making people sit in a chain lockers for up to two weeks IS a part of the Sea Org’s. Even for five-year-olds.
I’m aware of them. I’ve read a lot of the St. Petersburg Times’ reporting, some stuff at Operation Clambake, and other things. I don’t think their behavior is particularly different from other fanatical groups.
I know Hubbard was a fraud. He’s also dead, so I’m not sure his motives are relevant to the issue.
Do you think those characteristics make him unique among religious founders? I don’t.
Until his last years when he was drugged out of his mind, he probably didn’t believe it. So what?
True, but Scientology takes it a couple notches further, I think. There’s shunning, and then there’s unrelenting seek and destroy.
As for Islam calling for the death of apostates, well, yes. That’s because the places where that happen are backwards dumps, by and large. Scientology does its extreme thing right in SoCal. Context matters.
I said that myself. It’s also true that the belief in priestly authority and the RCC’s position that priests should not be subject to secular law allowed the abuses to go on.
And most Scientologists aren’t in Sea Org, so where does that leave the issue? And how does that compare something like prohibiting girls from going to school?
Where did I condone forbidding girls from going to school? Extremism in ANY religion is wrong. And that’s equally wrong and should be dealt with too.
And yes, I read what you posted as far as the church’s actions reguarding the molestation scandal. But some people still feel compelled to say it’s the same. The church is wrong there, but I don’t feel it’s as evil as Scientology.
No, not everyone is in Sea Org. However, there are still similiar, if not quite as extreme, practices in the organization.
(I’m still reading the book, and haven’t gotten to the chapter on “Fair Game” quite yet)
We’re not arguing about whether or not it’s wrong- we all agree that it is. The question I am asking is that, since Scientology’s repulsive practices are pretty similar to the repulsive practices of other religions - bilking people, demanding blind obedience, controlling people’s lives, shunning of ex-believers - why is it that Scientology needs to be destroyed and other religions don’t? I think Tom Cruise is a dickhead, but I think he’s allowed to throw his money away on a stupid fake religion if he wants to.
How does that follow. Religion is inculcated in children for the purpose of keeping them in the faith. Teaching them arithmetic does not do that, Nor will reading skills do that. Indoctrination is not mere education.