Many Republicans here in the US have been concerned with ISIS using the Syrian refuge crisis to sneak terrorists into the US and have stated that they do not trust the vetting process used by the current administration. Meanwhile, it is now clear that the majority of the terrorists that perpetrated the Paris attacks were actually European citizens. While the refugees have to go through a 2 year vetting process to get into the US, tourists and business travelers many times go through no vetting process at all. As a example, the majority of the 9/11 hijackers got into the country on tourist and student visas if IIRC.
If you go to this website maintained by the US State Department’s Bureau of Consular Affairs and scroll down to the statistical tables on non-immigrant visas (pdf) you will see that the US issued non-immigrant visas to almost half a million people from Africa last year (including many to people from Northern Africa where the Madrid Bombers originated). They issued almost 4 million visas to people from Asia including more than 140,000 visas to people from Saudi Arabia where the 9/11 hijackers originated. And they issued more than 50,000 visas to citizens of Belgium and France where the majority of the Paris attackers came from. Clearly, students, tourists, and business travelers pose a much higher risk than the 10 thousand or so Syrian refugees trying to come to this country. Right?
If we did start severely limiting the number of people that came to the US in fear of the potential damage they might cause, how many billion’s of dollars would it cost us and what damage would it do to our economy? Should we care? Shouldn’t we prioritize safety over economic or even humanitarian interests?
My opinion: I think that the Republican Presidential Candidates and Governors who are making political hay out the current migrant crisis and the terrorist incidents in Europe are cowards. They are either completely unable to gauge risks and understand true threats to the US, or they are pandering to the least common denominator and whipping up a xenophobic frenzy in an attempt to consolidate control of the US government. The fact that so many of the Republican base are susceptible to this fear mongering is disappointing in the extreme. I keep asking myself where they intend to take this country.
OK, I am bumping my own thread and that is pretty lame, but I believe it is relevant. On December 7, about 2 weeks after I submitted this thread, Donald Trump called for barring all Muslims from the US. This has excited many right wingers and has launched the Donald into new realms of popularity.
So which Muslims are we excluding? As I noted in the OP (and linked the cite), we issued more than 140,000 non-immigrant visas to people from Saudi Arabia in 2014. These are tourists, businessman, and students. Should we cut off all these people? How would US businesses feel about this? Should we care?
What about these countries (2014 Non-immigrant visas):
[ul]
[li]Egypt: ~55,000[/li][li]Ethiopia: ~15,000[/li][li]Kenya: ~20,000 (>10% Muslim)[/li][li]Algeria: ~10,000[/li][li]Nigeria: ~140,000 (~40% Islamic)[/li][li]Bangladesh: >30,000 (>85% Muslim)[/li][li]Indonesia: >60,000 (>85% Muslim)[/li][li]Israel: ~130,000 (>15% Muslim)[/li][li]Jordan: ~30,000[/li][li]Lebanon: ~30,000[/li][li]Iran: ~30,000[/li][li]Kuwait: ~35,000[/li][li]Turkey: ~100,000[/li][/ul]
This is the number of people that visit the US every year from these countries, and I think it would be a good guess that a significant fraction of these people are Muslim. These people have been coming here year after year for a long time (the link covers 2005-2014, but you could find older data) and we have not been killed by these people. Should we exclude them? Really? Who the hell are these Trump supporters that think it is a good idea to shut down our borders to people who visit from other countries? What should we do with people from countries like France (50,000 immigrants, 5% Muslim population)? Question them? Block 2500 of them randomly? Skin color?
Surely there is a Trump supporter on these boards that is willing to take a shot at this debate?
Far more people die from drunk driving than terrorism. It kills over 10,000 people each year. That s like having the 9/11 attacks happen every 4 months. By your logic, we should also close all the bars and distilleries.
I am asking for a Trump supporter, specifically one that thinks a temporary ban on Muslim entry to our country is a good idea, to step up and debate the issue. I don’t think you and I disagree on this issue; so you are not who I am looking for.
What a funny guy! I know we have pinky what’s his name in the pit right now, but I would rather pull this up to a higher level. What about you ITR? I have seen you express some support to what I would consider nutty right wing ideas; how do you feel about the Syrian immigrants and Trumps ideas about stopping Muslims from coming into the country?
I also agree with you that I am unlikely to attract any Trump supporters to this thread. It’s too bad really, their view is madness and i would love to dig into it a bit.
The numbers the OP cites about nonimmigrant visas look very questionable. Like Canada with only 7,000. And the Western European numbers seem quite low.
Aren’t there huge numbers coming in without a visa?
Putting to one side the fact that Trump’s proposal is batshit insane, and also the fact that it’s fundamentally objectionable to anyone who thinks that fundamental human rights matter even in the smallest degree, should we also ask whether it’s even practical? Most countries’ passports don’t indicate the holder’s religion. How would Trump propose to distinguish between Muslim travellers and others? Is he relying on self-reporting by travellers? 'Cause, you know, if someone is willing to commit terrorist offences we have to admit the possiblity that he might also be willing to tell fibs. Or will he simply assume that anyone with black hair and brown eyes is a Muslim?
I am not a Trump supporter but everyone seems to be misquoting him. He said a temporary ban on Muslims until America has the proper security systems in place. how it can be implemented I do not know but at least he is considering the possibility which is more than can be said for some
And the fact that Canadian citizens are exempt from the requirement to obtain visas in most immigration categories. They can simply show up. (And this arrangement long predates the Visa Waiver program.)
Also of note is that the Visa Waiver program is about to change in a big way for citizens of VWP-eligible countries who are dual nationals of certain primarily Muslim countries or who have traveled there in the past 5 years. How the hell CBP is going to figure out who is a dual national, I have no idea, especially because dual nationals of some countries either may not realize they are dual nationals (such as they have one parent who is a national of the country in question, but were born elsewhere), and some countries have no procedure to renounce citizenship. And the provisions for people who have traveled to the verboten countries are all based on self-reporting.
I think you’re underestimating the nuttiness of Donald Trump. The entire Republican Party (minus a few nitwits like Palin), is rebuking Trump. They hate him, they hate what he’s doing to the party, and they hate his few concrete proposals, like this one. I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but it’s satisfying to see him push the Republican party into finally criticizing themselves. They’re starting to see their party like the rest of us have been seeing them for the last 15 years – unbelievably batty.
Even a temporary ban on a religion violates the 1st amendment. It also violates every American value this country was founded on, and is insulting to every freedom-loving American citizen.
He also didn’t say “until proper security is in place” because he knows as well as you do that the proper security is already in place. He said “Until Congress can figure all this out”. So not only is he passing the buck on a major policy decision before even being nominated or elected, he can’t even articulate what he actually proposes. What does he expect Congress to “figure out”? He couldn’t even articulate what particular problem he expects his “ban Muslims” policy to solve, except I guess to rally the bigots at a stump speech.
I think you’re underestimating the nuttiness of Donald Trump. The entire Republican Party (minus a few nitwits like Palin), is rebuking Trump. They hate him, they hate what he’s doing to the party, and they hate his few concrete proposals, like this one. I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but it’s satisfying to see him push the Republican party into finally criticizing themselves. They’re starting to see their party like the rest of us have been seeing them for the last 15 years – unbelievably batty.
Even a temporary ban on a religion violates the 1st amendment. It also violates every American value this country was founded on, and is insulting to every freedom-loving American citizen.
**Even a temporary ban on a religion violates the 1st amendment. It also violates every American value this country was founded on, and is insulting to every freedom-loving American citizen.
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I am not going to try and disagree with you. There is always a but, but with such rapidly changing situation as there is in Europe. Sometimes there has to be a temporary ban on the movement of people for the good of the nation. European security forces announced today that very high quality forged I.D., Visa and passport documents are being carried by immigrants making it easy for members of ISIS to travel
No, I think you’re wrong. There might be reasons to prevent specific people from immigrating, such as fleeing felons and known terrorists. But a whole class of people? Based on religion, race or ethnicity? No way. That’s patent bigotry of the highest order. There’s no other way to put it.
I do understand what you are saying. What has to be realised is that ISIS is dreaming of another 9/11 either in Europe or America, ISIS thinks of America as the big Satan and if they can hurt Americans they will. It has been proven that 9/11 only took a small group to be successful, it was the heroes on another plane that stopped the devastation being greater (God bless them they have earnt their walk in his holy garden)