I am not Muslim and I don’t claim to be any sort of authority, but I have known quite a few Muslims in my life and while most tried to fast the entire month of Ramadan none of them were able to do so every year and many broke their fast when they should not have under strict interpretation of the rules.
Because Muslims are human beings, and only God is perfect.
So they stray on this day or that day - they return to the fast the next day.
If your Ramadan fast is not perfect you certainly have company in that. If it was easy it wouldn’t be important, would it?
ETA: I’m not a Muslim, but I find that when I wish my Muslim customers a blessed fast they truly, truly are happy to hear that. I suspect that given the anti-Muslim sentiments they encounter they really appreciate even such a small gesture.
So, to all our Muslim Dopers - have a blessed fast.
So as to not fight the hypothetical, no, I would not want to be operated on by a surgeon during Ramadan.
I doubt if a responsible surgeon would go through with a surgery if he or she were not up to par for the job, and I doubt if having a shortened attention span, a headache and being grumpy would usually make that much of a difference, but that being said, I would not want want to increase my risk at all. I realize that although surgeons tend to be brilliant and dedicated, they are still human and occasionally make mistakes, and I learned while working for a lawyer who’s specialty was medical malpractice.
Regarding fasting during pregnancy, a couple of questions: is fasting even permitted below a certain age? If it is not permitted to impose the fast upon, say, a nursing infant, is it permitted to impose it upon a fetus in utero? Do the religious authorities agree on whether a pregnant woman who is not taking nutrition or fluid is effectively imposing a fast on her unborn child?
No fasting is not supposed to be done below a certain age and if a woman is in menstration or is thought to be pregnant, she is not supposed to be fasting.
Of course people do dumb thing…
yes I know, the new converts are quite famous for being very tedious. But that is not unique to the Islam.
this I have no problem with. Men staring at the asses does not give me any great liberties. If we sat in the pews like the christians that would be one thing…
it is hardly my idea, it is a well known sociological observation, but in any case it is something I observe as well personally.
Yes Westerners remark on this in every Islam conversation.
There is truth in it.
However some changes are coming from the changes in the socities as the Islamic country societies change from the more traditional, rural society or small city society to the large urbanized society, going through a process the West went through in the late 19e century to the 20e century.
The ongoing urbanization and this culture shift it is is a huge impact as well - the sociological and the economic changes are not just Wahbabism and that simplistic view.
there is more going on, there is a change coming from the rising education levels, the rising literacy levels and the confrontation of the Taqlid model of the rural islam (not necessarily more liberal and more good despite the stereotypes) with the new educatoinal and social structures of the urban life, the big city modern urban life.
These are important factors, as important as the Wahhabi scare factor the Westerners always look at.
A question. Very serious? How many Muslim doctors are you people exposed to fasting? Give me a break…
Of course persons - now I understand Gestalt is not muslim and experimenting with fasting - without habit of fasting do worse with it. There is indeed an effect of having a certain experience, particularly life long since adulthood. What Gestalt experiences is not the experience of the habituated faster. I am not a reflexive defender of fasting and not a great practitioner, but making your opinions off of this is boring.
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I found your demarche in that comparison and the characterizations offensive. I leave it at that, it was ignorant and superficial. I do not need lessons about the Ismaïlis.
Unfortunately, and particularly in the English. I think perhaps the South Asian influence. It is not in my opinion quite like this in the French
But in the real world outside of the arch internet advisors, a pharmacist would not get such an idiot answer… Human life comes before legalism, this the traditional Islamic thought always shared with the Judiasm.
What can I say?
Those websites almost always have the Salafi tinge - as much maybe from the South Asian Deobandi type - and they are stiff necked idiots in my opinion. But consistency… The real reasoning, no.
Perhaps if there was the good funding for a reasonable moderate Islamic fatwa site (and no not promoting the Western à la Muffin approved islam), aimed at the believer of the middle stream generic Sunni, it can help provide an alternative.
I will add that to my reading, according to statistics rather than the emotional appeals about the Fasting and the Islam (either by the devout or by the phobics), the impact of the Ramadan is not qutie clear. The statistics do seem to say some higher rate of accidental date, but the strength of the change is weak and not strong for conclusions. there is not some indisputable spike in the medical errors or the deaths, though.
there would really need to be a strong multi-year study across the data covering both the summer Ramadans and the winter - winter Ramadan fast is really not that hard to be honest - so to understand impacts, it is better to have many year analysis and cover the summer Ramadans. Then one can see and then some science can be brought to illuminate.
Otherwise we are just having anecdotes and the personal prejudices and preferences dressed up…
I think there’s another factor at work: work “ethic” and workplace rules in General. Second-hand anecdote from Germany: the Muslims of Turkish origin (most 1st Generation) Show strong observance of obvious Islam rules: as already noted, being in a foreign land leads to stronger showing, but since they often come from barely-literate rural Background, they don’t know enough theology of their own Religion to know why, or how to seperate culture (everybody does it) and Religion.
So most of them fast during Ramadan, but because the no-drinking-water affects them, many of them stay at home and call in “sick”. This gets their german non-muslim colleagues angry, because it’s dishonest. They say it would be fair and no Problem at all to take vacation days (there is a Minimum of 23 paid vacation days in German labour law), so everybody would know beforehand and could plan; and it wouldn’t burden the health insurance (which pays for sick days).
Also, not only do many of the Muslims observed gain weight during fasting - because of the two big meals at night which messes up the Body metabolism - but many damage their kidneys with no drinking. (One man stopped after years once his kidneys were damaged beyond repair and his doctor had words with him).
That’s the other Problem, not only adapting what Mohammed told his followers in a very different Society without work on the clock, but also living in a Country where everything does not shut down during the day when it’s Ramadam (as travellers to Major-Muslim countries tell: Shops and Offices are closed, so People sit at home and rest during fasting).
Outside of emergencies, surgeries are typical scheduled for the early morning, or can be, which would be the start of the fast when adverse effects would be minimal. So, again, outside emergencies, a surgeon fasting for Ramadan should not pose a significant risk at least in the morning.
For me, at least three of five (possibly four of five), including the neuro-surgeon who was set to operate inside my spine.
If extended rigorous fasting were proven to not increase risk, then I’d have no issue with it, but until then, I’ll play it safe. I don’t care at all which nationality, religion, creed, sex or colour my doctor is. What I care about very much is that my doctor must be in top form, without exception. When there is potential for paralysis, I’ll go with the precautionary principle every time. The burden of proof is on the doctor to prove that his or her ability is absolutely undiminished by extended rigorous fasting or anything else, not on me to prove the negative.
Look, Ramira, I don’t have an interest in Islam’s variously sectarian squabbles. They sound like the Catholic v. Protestant and the Christian v. Mormon thing. Remember, I’m an atheist. Majority Sunni v. minority Shia in general and sub-minority Shia Ismaili Nizari in particular, and Arabic v. Western . . . it matters not at whit to me.
I come at it from the perspective of all sects having equal validity. What you perceive as demarche is simply my lack of deep-rooted sectarian bias between your sect and the Nizari. From the starting point that all sects are equally valid under god, and the dominant competitive issue at hand being the negative effects of fasting, one sect stands out to me as having an effective solution in reconciling practice and doctrine.
I suggest you look to your own background and your own prejudices, for from an outsider’s view, majority Sunni and sub-minority Shia Ismaili Nizari are both Islamic to the core, and and from a rational view, whether one is in the majority or in the minority is immaterial (argumentum ad populum).
If you believe that doctrinal, practice or any other differences between your version of Islam and the Nizari’s version of Islam is on point, then by all means bring them up, but take offence at me? No, you own that, not me.
No, I don’t abstain from water during a fast. In fact, I make it a point to drink more water/coffee/non-caloric fluids, to replace the water I get from food. But yes, part of the point of a fast is to change your mental and emotional state. I get sort of nervous and intense as the fast goes on, and some of the discipline of a fast is to re-focus that intensity to prayer and Scripture. And especially not to let it affect how I relate to other people. This is related to Jesus’ admonitions to “don’t let your fasting be seen by others.” I try not even to mention that I am doing it, unless someone asks or needs to know.
I am not a Muslim either; I’m Lutheran. My pastor is the one who taught me about fasting, how to do it, why to do it, and different ways of doing it.
But fasting is not obligatory in the Christian tradition, and therefore there is no need for anyone to rule authoritatively on the details. And my pastor doesn’t tell me or anyone else “you have to do it this way or it doesn’t count”. He is a wise man and an experienced Christian, and I value his counsel very much, but he doesn’t issue dicta. I have no idea if having an imam is like that, or even if there is the equivalent of Talmud rules built up around observances like this as there is in the Jewish tradition.
I think that if you are seeking to honor Allah with your fast, and to draw closer to Him, that’s the central point. To quote Jesus again, “Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you” (Matthew 7:7).
And “Allah is merciful and compassionate”. That’s something Christians, Jews, and Muslims agree on.
I do not have a "sect " and I do not take a position based on a religious preference of my own, your huge assumptions unfounded left aside. I do know more about the theologies of these things than you do, from WikiTheology.
Your demarche was advancing superficial opinions about things you barely know. I find it offensive, much like if I were to make opinions about sects of the Protestants based on reading the Wikipedia and knowing some of the Protestants and what I see in the news.
Yes and it is so forgotten.
We open every one of the prayers, “In the Name of God the Merciful and the Compassionate.” - these are the repeated first principals of God.
Some how some people make Merciful and Compassionate into “the legalistic and the nasty.”
[QUOTE=Ramira]
Unfortunately, and particularly in the English. I think perhaps the South Asian influence. It is not in my opinion quite like this in the French
[/QUOTE]
:dubious: The website is run by Arabs (as the names suggest) and the answers obviously translated from Arabic.
:rolleyes:
Of course. So kind of you to tell me how Muslim behave (ISIS seriously? Maybe I should take examples of how Americans behave from the KKK).
I really don’t know how Western surgeons perform surgery. They all drink alcohol. How do drunks perform surgery safely? Thats the level of thought that goes into your questions.
You think that a surgeon,i.e a professional in a job that takes years of dedicated study and training is unable to decide for him/herself when it would be problematic to fast? You think that because someone is Muslim they are so stupid that despite being a surgeon they won’t understand “fasting during this procedure might be problematic”. Or do you think Muslims are stupid, generally?
FTR, most professionals figure out how to perform to the optimum level in Ramazan. You reschedule stuff for before or after Ramazan if you can. You do it either in the morning or after the end of the fast. Or if you absolutely have to do it, then yeah you skip a fast and make it up later.
There is a range of doctrine and practice between various sects in Islam. At one extreme is ISIS, and at another is Narazi. The purpose of the illustration is to point out that there are differences between sects, so shop around before deciding which sect to follow.
When comparing doctrines and practices to delineate boundaries on a relevant issue, by all means take example of how Americans behave from the KKK, but also take example of the NAACP.
Perhaps you missed this:
From the med-mal files I used to work on, I can tell you that yes, surgeons occasionally screw up, and sometimes those mistakes arise out of their life circumstances (stress, lack of sleep and alcohol being right up there).
Yes that’s really the missing element. I’ve actually searched for this . . . there is some data that some types of memory and performance are compromised by dehydration, but people counter that by saying that they don’t get dehydrated because they drink a lot in the morning . . . as I said, I’m skeptical of that claim as well, but there really isn’t enough data. There is quite a bit of literature showing that in patients with chronic kidney disease, Ramadan fasting can cause acute kidney injury, and one can extrapolate from that these people are in fact dehydrated. But 1) It’s an extrapolation 2) The studies are on patients with chronic kidney disease, not healthy people and 3) The studies are small and the data is weak
I don’t think the drunk analogy really works here because we don’t let surgeons who are clearly drunk operate.
But, I do think your last paragraph is important. The fasting doctor (and other fasting people) that I’ve talked to about this say that they don’t feel their performance is affected. BUT, I don’t know that people are good judges of their own impairment. I mean, would you be okay with a surgeon who had a couple of drinks but didn’t feel impaired?
Also, people, and more so among doctors, have huge ego issues with admitting their own impairment, whether it’s from stress, sleep-deprivation, drinking, whatever. It has nothing to do with “stupidity,” but rather a belief that admitting to impairment is a form of weakness.
And yes, if you’re in a Muslim country or have your own OR then you can move the times of surgery around. But most western surgeons in June probably cannot reschedule all (or even most) of their surgeries to be between or even near the hours of 5 AM and 8 PM.
Finally, even though people can skip a fast and do it later . . . I imagine there is huge social, or personal, pressure to fast. I mean pregnant women do it, as well as ~30% of insulin-dependent diabetics.
So one thing that I wanted to re-iterate, which I also said in my OP, is that no one can really ensure that they’re in “top form without exception” on any given day. Some things are more-or-less out of a person’s control, like stress from family problems, or bad traffic or whatever. But some things which impair performance can be controlled, like drinking and alcohol (indisputably) impairing, or fasting (no clear data).
I don’t see where in a healthy pregnant woman fasting is inherently something high risk. Her body will be supplying the baby with what it needs even if she isn’t eating or drinking for a time period. There is a certain resiliency in the human animal, even a pregnant one. It may not be ideal, but then, most of a woman’s pregnancy isn’t completely ideal, either.
One of the methods I’ve seen, for factories which work in shifts, is shift-swapping. Every shift-working factory I’ve known accepts that for all kinds of situations: so long as the swappers are happy with it, the company is happy with it. Unless Ramadan happens to fall on June or July, swapping 6-14 to 14-22 would mean being able to eat lunch with the rest of your shiftmates.
And it’s not as if fasting is an exclusively-Muslim practice. People fast to different levels by all kinds of reasons, from religious to having a bad tummy to diet fads. Have any of you ever worried about a Catholic who might follow the practice of fasting and abstaining on every Friday? About any Christian on Lent? I don’t, but I’ll admit I do worry about people who fast “to cleanse their body of toxins”.