And since the expressed opinion was
[ul][]Make Afghanistan into US controlled territory[]Eliminate Islam[*]Hi Opal[/ul]I thought it was very much clear that they would be under American control. However, just in case that isn’t clear to you, what should be clear is that we don’t take away anyone’s right to believe in and worship God however they want. We do take away their ability to blow up buildings, and their freedom to live among normal society if they do violate law.
Malaysia is:
[ul][li]Not Arab,[/li][li]Predominately Muslim,[/li][li]A Constitutional monarchy,[/li][li]with an elected Prime Minister who runs the government.[/ul][/li]
Now, how many other errors are in the illiteratti’s posts above?
Fair enough.
Can someone please explain to me the “equality” aspect of Islam (culturally speaking) based on the fact that all predominately-Muslim countries in the Arab and MidWest Asian world do not have democratic societies?
I think Islam should be at least questioned as I did here:
But I have yet to get an answer.
I’m sure the OP will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that in Ireland they have the occasional McDonalds and the majority of the population has “something to do” with their day.
Is Islam the problem? I would argue that extremism of any kind is the problem (perhaps especially when coupled with religion, but not exclusively so).
Non-religious extremist governments have no better track record in respect of human rights abuses and oppressing their populations than do extremist governments representing state religions.
We have a substantial Muslim population here and they aren’t going to “forget” their religion in the face of our democracy and our capitalist society. If anything, they are more committed to their faith here as they are allowed to practise it without fear of retribution should they fall short of “perfection”.
[peering through the shitstorm]
Thank you, Andros. 
[putting Teflon umbrella back up]
[fascinated by hearing Polycarp referred to as a “typical moronic jesus-lover” and constitutionally unable to leave, tho the shit fly ever so thick]
The U.S. really has no strategic interest in Afghanistan anyway. And it would be damned hard to hold. And it would be wrong to try to take it.
But let’s assume that we decide to go into the nation-building business. How best to create a reasonable fascimile of democracy and civilized society in Afghanistan?
Well, how about cutting a deal NOW with the various factions within Afghanistan, wherein we agree to topple the Taliban, and help to create a coalition government consisting of Afghan Muslims from every geographic area in the country? In return for which, you demand that they must respect the U.N. charter of human rights, and they must not tolerate terrorists of any sort. You make it clear that there will be serious consequences for violating this. Then you can even go get the old King of Afghanistan who was ousted in 1987, and who apparently is still much respected by the people, and make him the titular head of the government. Again, you only offer to do that for him if he agrees to a number of conditions that should leave Afghanistan a better place.
Once you’ve gotten everyone to sign on to that, you get Pakistan to agree to it, and you let it be known to the Afghans that Pakistan DEMANDS those conditions, or they might just do something in the future. And if the Afghans agree, not only will you help them take power, but you will give them billions of dollars in aid and let them take credit for it and help distribute it, to win over the hearts and minds of the people. And you supply them with some arms and intelligence to allow them to crack down on any remnants of the Taliban or other extremist factions that are still out there taking pot-shots at people.
While you are at it, you send Americans into the country to rebuild it. Perhaps the Army Corps of engineers, or even civilian companies. But you rebuild the infrastructure you just bombed, and in the process you help to win the hearts and minds of the people and make them pro-American (or at least less anti-American).
Pretty clever, eh? Well, that’s exactly what the Bush administration is doing.
Lots of stuff could still go wrong with this scenario. The main one being that the extreme elements in the Northern Alliance and other factions gain power in government and start turning ‘taliban’ on us. A real risk. And the King is over 80 (84?) years old, and won’t be around for long. I believe he has a son that would like to succeed him, but I have no idea how that would go over. So there aren’t any easy solutions, but I think the Bush Administration has an excellent strategy with the highest chance of success to bring that country back into the 20th century.
I think EternalStudent should start by studying the recent history of Afghanistan for reasons why the locals have no food. Then come back after being informed and present some reasonable arguments.
While I never advocated taking away anyone’s right to believe what they want, I will now advocate the equality of men and women, something many in the MidEast and corresponding Islamic faith do not advocate, but rather enforce the opposite.
So, what now do we do?
Is the Islamic faith responsible for denying women equal rights?
Is it the people who practice the faith?
Is it the gov’t?
If the faith imposes an unfair regulation of common interaction should we not consider, at the very least, a restructuring of the system through education and awareness?
My comments about trampling the ideals of the US Constitution were directed at EternalStudent who advocating the eradication of Islam, at least in Afghanistan.
As for arguing for equality of men and women, that is reasonable in the eyes of the law. However, to force a religion to change its beliefs to conform to that would again violate the ideals of the Constitution.
Whatever government replaces the Taliban should be unable to force religious ideals onto the populace, but those who choose to adhere to a religion should be free to adhere to the rules of the religion. Religious leaders can impose voluntary punishment for offenses, but the greatest punishment is expulsion from that religion’s community. In other words, how it works in the west.
I say we just take that shit.
Who’s with me?
Typical moronic Jesus-lover checking in.
And I’m glad (sort of) that I have provided the latest confirmation of Gaudere’s Law. It was needed after Sister Coyote made reference to it in a perfectly grammatical and properly spelled post. Whatcha tryin’ to do, Sr. C. crash the server? 
Lolo, haven’t you taken enough shit already? 
Eternal Student, either you (a) believe the stuff you’ve been spewing about America, in which case you have the contempt of virtually every other person here, their metaphysical differences notwithstanding, or you’re trolling. I’ll leave it to you to say which you intended.
Typically I attempt a reasoned refutation of people’s points. With yours, there was nowhere to start – you evidently simply have no concept of what being a free people entails. If you care to take off the flamethrower and discuss the issues reasonably and amicably, I’m prepared to do likewise.
With regard to the OP, I believe it would be a logistical nightmare to attempt to put Afghanistan through commonwealth status. And it’s plentifully obvious to me that they are not in a position to be admitted as a state. I suppose a trust territory status would be possible, but I had rather see Pakistan or one of the “Turkestani” nations undertake the trusteeship. (And our record as midwives of new nations is rather less than perfect: Liberia, Cuba, the Philippines, and the four Micronesian states, none of which have shone as long-term democracies until the present.)
What Bush, Powell, et al. are proposing is to create a temporary government from members of the Northern Alliance and the exiled Shah along with persons with the demonstrated capacity to get the factions of the Northern Alliance to cooperate, something they found hard to do in the years between the Russian ouster and the Taliban takeover. I support these efforts, though with reservations on whether they will actually work. Nonetheless, they seem to give the best chance of giving the Afghan people a free, stable, quasi-democratic government.
Thank you andros and Monty for picking up my slack.
Sometimes I’m required to apply my ignorance fighting abilities elsewhere…like my job.
I’m more or less in line with Sam and (frighteningly) George W on the whole nation building thing. Unless someone can produce a substantive argument to the contrary.
As to the oppression of women, I agree that it seems terrible from the outside. But if it’s to change, it must come from the inside. The beauty of the American system is that it allows for such change. But our policies are still affected by our religious and moral proclivities. I submit that discussions like this are a difference of degree, not type, from what goes on in fundamentalist Muslim countries.
Ok, here it is.
Firstly, I haven’t been saying much about America. All I’ve said is that if the US was to annex Afghanistan, we would need to eliminate Islam to gain control.
This statement seemed to generate much controversy. “It’s unamerican!”, “freedom of religion”, blah blah blah.
You and many other misguided souls (not talking about jesus here) are under some pseudo-romantic notion that America is all about freedom and goodwill. My god you couldn’t be more wrong.
How the hell do you think America has gotten where it is today? By giving people freedom? HA! We TOOK FREEDOM. We slaughtered countless Native Americans who had reached this continent long before we did, in order to gain more land. We let some live, throwing them on small pieces of land and forcing them to adapt to our lifestyle. Then we cultivated this land to aid our economy using the labor of SLAVES whose FREEDOMS we STOLE.
Without the widespread slaughter of the Native Americans and the use of Slaves, this country would be nothing. Our Constitution is written with the blood of innocent people who got in our way.
So please, spare me the bullshit that I don’t know what America stands for. America is what it is because we robbed people of freedom. Pure and fucking simple.
Ok, here it is.
Firstly, I haven’t been saying much about America. All I’ve said is that if the US was to annex Afghanistan, we would need to eliminate Islam to gain control.
This statement seemed to generate much controversy. “It’s unamerican!”, “freedom of religion”, blah blah blah.
You and many other misguided souls (not talking about jesus here) are under some pseudo-romantic notion that America is all about freedom and goodwill. My god you couldn’t be more wrong.
How the hell do you think America has gotten where it is today? By giving people freedom? HA! We TOOK FREEDOM. We slaughtered countless Native Americans who had reached this continent long before we did, in order to gain more land. We let some live, throwing them on small pieces of land and forcing them to adapt to our lifestyle. Then we cultivated this land to aid our economy using the labor of SLAVES whose FREEDOMS we STOLE.
Without the widespread slaughter of the Native Americans and the use of Slaves, this country would be nothing. Our Constitution is written with the blood of innocent people who got in our way.
So please, spare me the bullshit that I don’t know what America stands for. America is what it is because we robbed people of freedom. Pure and fucking simple.
Ok, here it is.
Firstly, I haven’t been saying much about America. All I’ve said is that if the US was to annex Afghanistan, we would need to eliminate Islam to gain control.
This statement seemed to generate much controversy. “It’s unamerican!”, “freedom of religion”, blah blah blah.
You and many other misguided souls (not talking about jesus here) are under some pseudo-romantic notion that America is all about freedom and goodwill. My god you couldn’t be more wrong.
How the hell do you think America has gotten where it is today? By giving people freedom? HA! We TOOK FREEDOM. We slaughtered countless Native Americans who had reached this continent long before we did, in order to gain more land. We let some live, throwing them on small pieces of land and forcing them to adapt to our lifestyle. Then we cultivated this land to aid our economy using the labor of SLAVES whose FREEDOMS we STOLE.
Without the widespread slaughter of the Native Americans and the use of Slaves, this country would be nothing. Our Constitution is written with the blood of innocent people who got in our way.
So please, spare me the bullshit that I don’t know what America stands for. America is what it is because we robbed people of freedom. Pure and fucking simple.
But one thing, it sure worked great!
Fair enough. I can concur that, in general and with very specific and very few exceptions, this country was founded by, with, and for the freedom of white Protestant males over age 21, with special reference to those who owned a bunch of property. However, they seemed to be, again in general and with exceptions, possessed of a sense of generalized liberty for all (as they understood it – again restricted to males and largely to whites) that has, over the years, seen itself extended to all people under our national aegis.
Just FTR, there were a limited handful of fair treaties made with Native Americans and abided by – the Iroquois nations and New York celebrated the 200th anniversary of one some years ago at Fort Stanwix, and I believe there’s still one between William Penn (as proprietor of PA) and the Lenni Lenape still in effect.
And there are no living blacks who were slaves. Probably a large number of them who are adversely affected by being black, to be sure.
Now, if you’ve got a point to make about what all this has to do with the present situation with Afghanistan, please spell it out, because I missed it in all the stuff going on.
is that all those who cried out that destroying Islam would be wrong, unAmerican, etc etc obviously haven’t a clue of how America is what it is.
We take what we want, with regard to none but ourselves.
That, my cross-worshpping companion, is the real American way.
Those who deny this are living in a fantasy world.
Ah. So you’re trying to express disgust with America. Cool, I can groove on that.
I’m sure you’ll forgive those of us who disagree with your bleak assessment, who are not proud of parts of US history, and who seek to do better than our ancestors.
The idea of eliminating Islam, or any religion, is repulsive to me. I find it anthetical to the ostensible bases of the Constitution and (if you’ll forgive the cliche) the “American way.”
Just because someone hae been a dick in the past does not mean he will always in all things be a dick. And that holds for nations as well. Your “real American way” does not have to be a reality. And some of us care enough to work at making sure it does not.
Thank you Andros for saying what I was feeling but had not put the proper words around.
Eternal Student, though there is much wrong with our past and a fair to middling amount wrong with our present, please name anywhere else (other than the few nations with whom we share similar origins with similar abuse of aboriginal now-minorities) where you could publish on a public medium such a comment and not lie in fear of the Special Police coming to take you away for sedition?
Many of us are not blind to America’s faults. That does not stop us from loving it and wanting to improve it.
Beyond your cynicism, what would you advocate? I know of at least one corporate Executive Vice President who reads this board and, AFAIK, shares some of your apparent views on what is reprehensible in history; there are at least two elected state officials who have been sporadic posters here in the past, though I haven’t seen them around lately. Your views do get read by people who count and who may actually be moved to take action by well-thought-out arguments. (Another point behind Fenris’s apologia pro messageboardia sua in the Pit.)