I’m STILL waiting for a Mod to drop in…
Polycarp MORONIC? HELLO? Poly is probably one of the most intelligent, articulate, eloquent and gracious posters on this board. He is also one HELL of a guy and one of the best posters around.
Sheesh!
Possibly. But isn’t Christianity also responsible for denying women equal rights? Possibly.
Isn’t Judaism also responsible for denying women equal rights? Possibly.
But is the fact that an organized religion may be responsible for denying women equal rights a reason to set out to eradicate that religion from its believers’ hearts and minds?
No. Because it wouldn’t be fair to do that to the rest of the world and not do it to ourselves, and because in America, at least, people have a right to believe in whatever religion they want, remember? Even if you personally don’t have any use for religion, many of us do, and we have the constitutional right to believe.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti
If we’re going to go around eradicating religions that oppress women, why not start at home first?
ES’s rant is so egregiously false I feel moved to shed it as follows:
No, rather they have 100% knowledge of the mere fact, fact mind you–not opinon, of the Constitution of the United States of America which mandates that the government neither respect nor prohibit any particular religion.
This has obviously escaped you: Islam is what’s known as a religion. That means it’s off limits to eradication.
Incorrect. The United States got out of the colony business some time ago. That you are stuck in the past does not, in any way whatsoever, mean the rest of us are.
Let’s see:
[ul][li]Philippines[/li][li]Marshall Islands[/li][li]Marianas[/li][li]Canal Zone[/ul][/li]
Looks to me like we gave back.
Incorrect yet again. The Philippine populace wanted independence for quite some time. Minor little thing known as World War II got in the way of a smooth transition to that. There are, of course, Guam and Puerto Rico which both have pro-independence movements. What’s rarely reported, apparently because it’s not as eye-catching on the television news, is that both territories have pro-“status quo” and pro-statehood movements which actually want the territories to remain part of the United States.
Why should anyone take your word on this when you’ve been proven wrong? Anyway, what about those Americans who do not worship the cross and those who do not worship any deity?
No, 'tis they who are living in reality. You, ES, are living in a world of delusion. See a doctor and get help–the sooner, the better.
Germany and Japan were each pretty much homogenous nations when they lost WWII. The Philippines, although it has an overwhelming Roman Catholic majority, is by no means homogenous. There are Tagalog, Ilocano, Visayan, Cubuano, etc. groups, many of them with their own languages (and with dialects for those languages). There is also a Muslim minority which is mostly situated in Mindanao. Essentially, the Philippines went from being colonized by Spain to being colonized by the United States to being run like shit by their absolutely corrupt government. Germany and Japan each had effective (if not representative) governments before their defeat.
All the while Spain and then the United States tried to “reshape” the Philippines, there were independence fighters against the colonial governments. After the defeat of Germany and Japan, those countries participated in rebuilding the governments and the nations without fighting yet another war.
Like the Philippines, Afghanistan is comprised of numerous ethnic groups and, unless the Taliban just recently killled the last of them off, a couple of minority religions.
Does this answer your query?
To be fair, I think you could say such things all over Europe and in several parts of the world more easily than in the US, which suffers, for example, from persistent outbursts of witch-hunting. So I would not use this country as the perfect example of freedom, government propaganda notwithstanding. Said that, the US certainly has its strong points, chief in my mind being the Constitution and attitudes like the following:
It is such a brief sentence that makes the US a great country; not its military might, ruthlessly capitalist system, frequently obtuse leadership, rearing fundamentalism, inferior education system, intrusive administration, or offensive policies. You can pick any nation, even ones as “successful” as Canada or Sweden (examples), and find some problems with them. In delicate times like these, however, when the world starts speaking of “clash of civilizations”, it is time for everyone to slow down and think carefully about what is broadcast.
The idea of just taking Afghanistan is of course plain silly; the suggestion of eradicating Islam is idiocy; the assertion that “Moslem” = “Arabic” is ignorance; and the vaunted superiority of American values over others, even those present in Afghanistan, is partly delusional. There are PLENTY of worthy values, practices, and governments outside the borders of the US. Please stop assuming that US culture and values could solve the problems in Afghanistan. That’s a brand of ethnocentrism, and is rather irrelevant since it presents us with a bigger problem than we face now (i.e. Americanizing Afghanistan).
The problems in Afghanistan will be solved by a lot of hard work from many members of the international community, the US included. This will be a task of reconstruction and re-education rather than destruction. The only ways you can deal with fanatics permanently is to a) kill them, or b) attack their fanaticism through education. Solution (a) results in martyrs, which further incite surviving fanatics and puts absolutely everyone at risk. Solution (b) seems, at least superficially, more daunting, but a fanatic who has been educated presents us with the following advantages:
- He is no longer a fanatic, or at least is toned down
- Is not martyr material because he is alive
- He may help educate other fanatics or speak out against them
- His lack of a brutal death will not inspire feelings of revenge in his family, friends, sect, etc.
**
Possibly. 
You’ve listed some reasons why I subscribe to no religious doctrine.
You’ve also made a comment on a comment I was trying to make. The Judaeo-Christian religions have made a concerted effort to ignore many passages in their favorite books while screaming from the rooftops about others; but that is their problem, not mine, and maybe they don’t even see it as a problem.
Basically what we’ve encountered is a church and state argument. For the Taliban, and for many Middle Eastern countries, the church IS their state. So, what to do?
Education certainly is necessary. ( which would be easier if we just took that shit ;))
Erradication would only fuel the rebellious fire.
Here’s a question; Is a religion inherently flawed for suggesting sexual inequality?
Or… were the prophets who wrote the books not really listening to God? I mean, I’d hate to think an all powerful being would be sexist, wouldn’t you?
Or maybe the books are reflections of their times, when women were considered to be inferior.
Is God not timeless?
I’m not sure about your response. Are you pro or anti God? what’s your story?
If God cannot correctly inspire, what kind of God is he/she/it?
Depens on one’s definition of god. After all, there are still extant relgions which postulate gods who are born, fight each other, and then die.
You evidently are not able to distinguish between the particular form of relgion you protest against and all other forms of religion.
First of all, sorry for calling Polycarp moronic. That was not nice. It’s just that those damn christians always get my panties in a bunch.
Now to the real point… What I see are a bunch of idealists like Monty who just looove to be patriotic and talk about how much they loove America and how great the Constitution is for providing all of our precious freedoms and how great America is because we care about all the people in the world etc etc
Spare me.
The only reason that we are what we are, the only reason that we have what we have, the only reason that you people can even claim that you love America, is because we ROBBED thousands of Native American’s of their freedom. Period.
This is our foundation, one built on taking freedom from others. This is what our country was molded from. So it is utterly hypocritical for anyone to condemn behavoir similar to this (ie taking over Afghanistan and eradicating Islam there). This is what we do. We are the most powerful nation in the world. We take over. We kick shit. We have appointed ourselves global police. We live in relative safety from the rest of the world. IT IS THIS AND THIS ALONE which allows us our little freedoms. Our freedoms would be yanked IN A HEARTBEAT if national security was on the line. (ww2 japanese holding camps for example) After the WTC bombing, there was already a significant threat to our freedoms. Throw in a couple more terrorist attacks and you can kiss them all goodbye. Our freedoms are just an illusion to placate us, but once shit starts to get real hairy, they will vanish.
The Constitution, which some of you love to cite, is nothing more than a byproduct of robbing others (Native Americans) of their freedoms. Therefore whatever freedoms it might proclaim are effectively nullified. Except the right to bear arms. We seem to really like that one.
You can take a big pile of shit and make a real nice, intricate sculpture, full of meaning and importance. But guess what, no matter how you mold it, you can never cover the fact that it is still A BUNCH OF SHIT.
Our country is not based on freedom. It’s based on kicking ass. This is how it has always been, and this is how it must continue to be in order for us to keep our precious freedoms.
evidently you aren’t able to see no one here is still considering such anthropomorhic, born and fighting, god’s.
“It takes two people to have a proper insult: one to deliver it, and one to be insulted.” No prob, E.S. – I hang around here because I love to argue logically, and it’s one of the best places off a college campus to get into intelligent debates where people make sensible points. And I can understand your being frazzled by the “God says it, I believe it, that settles it” bunch. But that does not describe the overwhelming majority of us here, Christian or not.
So, make your case.
Up to this point you’ve said that we (i.e., the U.S.) should take it over as a strategic location to have a “state” (presumably meaning one of the presently-50 sovereign units indissolubly joined together to constitute the U.S.) and eradicate Islam there (contrary to our fundamental laws). And you’ve been offended by people pointing to our basic ideals because historically we have been guilty of oppression of Native Americans, Blacks, ethnic Japanese, and others. (And there are obvious cases of ethnic, sexual, and sexual-preference oppression continuing today here and there, a point you failed to make.)
It would seem that your point, such as it is, is that might makes right.
I would honestly like to see you express what you’re driving at in this series of posts more clearly – obviously you have an issue about which you feel strongly that this thread has triggered, and I may be shortsighted (I was called that by a fundamentalist earlier this year for accepting evolution, so it must be true :rolleyes: ), but I fail to see where you’re going other than just venting (we have a location for that, too: the Pit, and it’s sometimes fun, but it’s inappropriate here, by common consent.)
Please spell out in more detail what you expect to see done, both w/r/t Afghanistan and w/r/t U.S. as a nation with a mixed past and a set of high-minded ideals.
I do look forward to seeing what you think.
I believe there’s at least one Hindu posting on this board; and there are certainly quite a few Hindus in the United States. There are also animists, followers of traditional Chinese religions, and other “anthropomorphic” relgions in this land.