You didn’t answer the question. Should all provisional ballots in all states be counted? Should they go to that trouble, time, and expense of verifying all these ballots, even though in many cases counting them won’t change the outcome of the election in that state?
The one thing that struck me most in the F-9/11 film were the black representatives asking for a recount/revote whatever in the Senate. Not a single senator supported them.
That is a good reason to go to the end… either to make sure no chance was lost… but also to dismiss any possible future conspiratorial ideas. Not because it might give Bush legitimacy he lacked before… but to kick the left in the teeth and make them wake up. They won’t have Nader or Stolen votes to complain about… only themselves. That is the only way to get their act together.
Absolutely. Count every vote, and make every vote count. If it’s good enough for Afghanistan and Iraq, it’s good enough for America. Anything less demeans democracy, and shows the world that voting doesn’t matter.
That sounds fine to say that, but that’s not how (from I have heard on the news lately) the Provisional Ballot works in America. To do that in every state, no matter how pointless it is in regards to the outcome, sounds like it would be a huge hassle and a needless expense. So I guess you want to change the law, then. Good luck.
The votes of the people who voted provisionally and who are later determined to be legal voters should be counted. No question.
The votes of the people who voted provisionally who are later determined not to be legal voters should indeed be discarded.
As to whether a person who attempts to vote in the wrong precinct in the right county vs. one who attempts to vote in the wrong county is legal, I leave to the experts.
But we know now that their vote cannot mathematically change the outcome.
If they are watching a report about the election, THEY know it. So what possible gain arises from counting?
(Of course, this applies to my hypothetical in which the number of uncounted ballots is dramatically smaller than the margin of victory. If there are 50,000 uncounted ballots and one person is ahead by 51,000 votes, then by all means count).
Mr. Kerry should politely make a public speech noting that Mr. Bush appears at present to have won re-election, and that he will withhold a formal concession until it is certain Mr. Bush will get an electoral college majority, as a courtesy to all those people whose votes have not yet been counted (provisional votes or otherwise).
And a chorus of bluebirds should gather around each of our homes and sing “Happy Days Are Here Again” too – it’s about as likely an outcome! :dubious:
Because it affirms the process. A noble goal, and worth the effort. Besides, if you are so sure of your victory, what are you afraid of?
Exactly.
If there is some reasonable (or even slim) chance that counting the provisional ballots will change, then that’s one thing. But if there is No Chance in Hell, then what is the point?
I’m not an expert in how these things work, but I’ve gotten the impression that there are a lot of elections where some votes (like absentee ballots?) are not counted. There was no need to bother. Counting them wasn’t going to change the winner, no matter what.
Now I could be wrong about this and I’m sleep deprived so I’m not looking for a cite, but I think I remember hearing that in previous elections. I do know that the news is saying that in Ohio the provisional ballots will only be counted under certain circumstances, so it wasn’t like the law dictated that they have to be counted, no matter what. So, if there is any chance that they could change the outcome in Ohio, count them. If there is No Chance in Hell (unless, let’s say, 100% of them went to Kerry, which we know will not happen), then Kerry should concede.
I live in Ohio. I registered to vote before the deadline and went to my proper polling place. I therefore didn’t have to be provided a provisional ballot. It’s not rocket science. If people will bother to follow the proper voting procedures, they are assured that their “vote will count”.
Of course every vote should count, and every vote will count. I think some folks might be a little confused here about what it means to “concede”. A candidate’s choice to concede has zero effect on the vote tabulation. A concession is just a speech: it is not tantamount to a withdrawal and if a miracle turnaround or glitch in the counting were to be discovered before the state’s vote is certified, the conceder would still be awarded the state. The point of a concession is to acknowledge the inevitable while showing some class.
Also, all provision ballots found to be eligible will be counted. The whole reason for issuing a provisional ballot is that there is some question of the voter’s eligibility, and election officials must determine whether that vote was properly cast. This has nothing to do with the state of the race, and everything to do with whether that individual voter meets state voting requirement (are they registered, in a barred class [e.g. a felon], etc.). State officials will not simply say “Nuts to this” if provisional ballots could not turn the Presidential race. In addition to the fact that every state election agency I know of is charged with obtaining a complete count, there are many downballot races that may be tighter than the Presidential election.
I think the provisional vote counting should begin. When it (as it inevitably will) is evident after the first few hours that Kerry does not have a 15 to 1 advantage in those votes, he should concede.
I thought the law in Ohio stated that the provisional ballots can not be counted for 11 days?
This was what I was thinking when I started the thread. I still think Kerry’s lost, and he should acknowldedge that. If it turns out that he wins Ohio, I would expect Bush to do the same.
I mean, 11 days is only Nov. 13. Inaugaration isn’t until January.
I just think for the good of both the country and the Democratic party, that we try to get back to normal. Not that elections will ever be normal again…
From the CNN lead story:
I understand everybody’s belief that every vote should be counted, but realistically, politicians concede on the nights of elections before even all the regular votes are counted. That’s never bothered me. Maybe it’s because I’ve always harbored the illusion that with 90% of the vote in, mine was among those counted. With a provisional ballot, you know you didn’t get counted.
Seeing Kerry drag this out would certainly help Republicans in 2006/08. The numbers are too far in Bush’s favor for the people to tolerate tomfoolery, which is why money is on a concession tonight.
do provisional ballots include military ballots? is their any significant contribution from the soldiers in Iraq?
I don’t. But I do think it is money well spent, regardless of the cost. It’s not going to be a hundred billion dollars or anything.
Here’s the thing. Up north of your border, we get a ton of American influence. We get American music, American TV, American movies, American culture (such as it is 
), American business, American news, American politics, and most importantly for this discussion, American ideology.
Although it probably directly affects me least of the above on a day-to-day basis, what strikes me most about the U.S.A. is its founding principles. In the Declaration of Independence it states, “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” It seems to me that, applied to this situation, those votes not only deserve to be counted, but demand to be counted.
See, sometimes things worth doing are worth doing well. Other times, things worth doing are not worth doing well. And sometimes, even, as in this case, some things not worth doing are worth doing well. At the core of the American civilization is the drawing up of a government approved of by the people. One person, one vote. Regardless of whether this one ballot or those 50,000 ballots are going to change the course of the election, they demand to be counted.
Sometimes principles transcend economics.
I am Canadian, and I approved this message.
I think conceding is stupid until all votes have been counted. Were I in his shoes, I’d probably disappear Tuesday evening & resurface a week later.