BTW, I don’t. Doesn’t “work”.
As a former child care professional I think that the advice of Elkman was very good. I can tell you that children who are spanked are generally better behaved than those who are not. Whether this is causation or correlation I don’t know.
I don’t buy the arguement that spanking is bad modeling. We tell our children all the time not to do things that we do. We don’t let them drive cars even though they see us do it all the time, we don’t let them use sharp knives at the dinner table even though we do. Children understand that there is a difference between what adults do and what children do.
In general, I’m not a fan of spanking. I agree that it gives kids the wrong lesson and often doesn’t teach them anything productive. In fact, if used too often, I think it can actually cause a disregard for consequences (aw, what’s the worst that could happen, another swat?). I’ve known a lot of kids that developed that attitude. My brother was one - he would laugh at my mom while being spanked. By the time I came along (9 years later), my mom had mostly given up on spanking as a disciplinary tool.
On the other hand, if done properly, I don’t think that it is terribly destructive either. I was reared by a system similar to that described by Elkman. I think I was spanked a whole 3 times in my life (bare hand, two or three swats), for heinous offenses - but those occasions made a profound impression. Not because it was particularly painful, but because it was a spanking.
If used in this manner, spanking serves more as an attention-focusing tool - ‘your behavior was SO atrocious, and your refusal to stop despite ample warning was SO unacceptable, that I am going to use EXTREME measures to make perfectly clear just how far beyond the boundaries you went’. I was never in doubt as to what I had done wrong, and the spanking was always followed up by more usual punishment (grounding, etc.).
Then again, my best friend & siblings were never spanked. Their mom could make you feel about 2 inches tall when she had “a discussion” with you. Whatever it was, you never did it again. (After her kids were grown, she got some pets & we had to have a long talk with her. "Kittens are NOT kids. You can not keep them from chewing light cords by having “a discussion” with them. Really, if you don’t want to find them electrocuted, you MUST find a new method. :D)
I don’t think that the ‘out of control’ kids you see are caused by a lack of spanking. IME, those problems are caused by a lack of discipline and especially by a lack of consistency. You will have well behaved children if you use consistent, thoughtful discipline. If you don’t, you will have hoodlums, no matter how much you spank them.
PunditLisa, I agree that consistency, clarity and following through are the most important parts of discipline. And, it’s important to remember that discipline means to teach. Part of that is to reinforce good actions with praise.
Elkman, your advice is sound. I’ll talk to my wife about setting up a system that would ensure we follow levels of discipline before settling on spanking as the last resort.
My wife, FTR, is pro-spanking, when necessary. I was more against it because I remember how I was spanked. My father would just blow up, usually for something questionable like not eating my vegetables (he had this thing about finishing all my food no matter if I liked it – and I wasn’t even 5 years old yet when thes spankings occurred). Dad would hold off until his temper exploded. He would suddenly wail on me, spanking my behind in a violent fit. My wife said she could see why I’d be against spanking, with that as my model. I fear, having grown up like this, just exploding like this when my child does something terrible.
FTR, I still hope I never have to spank Jessica. I also plan to tell her that when she’s old enough to know spanking is an option. BTW, I don’t think spanking a 2-year-old is going to help much. I really think, at that age, they’re all going to test your patience because that’s the phase they’re going through. I really believe a child must be a little older to spank.
(Vanilla, I did a search for this subject beforehand, but somehow I overlooked your thread.)
Just two more cents.
Our ped. had this advice: A couple swats on the bottom with a bare hand is appropriate when the infraction could be life-threatening, like running into the street. It also, like all punishments, needs to be immediate. Like at the curb in the above scenario.
I always found that to be a reasonable yardstick.
“Should you?” that depends…on you, the child, the circumstances, etc…
“Do I?” Yes, when the circumstances are severe enough. I feel I should point out I know too well the differences between a spanking and a beating. (I had both so I think I can tell them apart) But a 5 year old who repeatedly takes off to the condo-community pool every time he’s allowed to play outside deserves a spanking. The third time, after I pulled him out of the pool twice, grounded him (first time) and sent him to bed without supper (second time). After the spanking he realized it WAS serious and hasn’t gone to the pool without a parent.
(Okay, here’s where I feel the need to explain myself a bit…he’s a young 5, the really innocent kind of kid, only allowed to play in the immeadiate front yard. His 2 year old sister(at that time) is autistic though not diagnosed at the time. Just not talking and socially retarded. So I deal with her, let him outside to play with his friends, clean her Kool-Aid goo off the couch, look out the window and he’s GONE. I drag her off to the pool and find him sitting in it with the life guard telling him to go home. He ignores the life guard. I drag him and his sister home…it was kinda old the third time. I still won’t strike my kids in anger or frustration… it’s too easy. But when nothing else works, I will resort to an open handed spanking on the bottom…TMI??)
Depends on the child. Depends on the parent.
I think there is a place for smacking in a parent’s repertoire, although not as an outlet for anger. By smacking I mean once, with an open hand on the backside, through the clothing. (Is this the same as spanking?).
I had hoped never to smack my daughter, though I wasn’t set against it. However, she went through a bad phase, with behaviour we think she picked up from other kids in childcare. She has sure never seen one of us raise a hand to the other, or punch, slap or bite each other, and as sure as little green eggs she has never seen us rush at each other with her fist raised screaming “kill” and making stabbing motions when we’re angry. I tried reasoning and time out, but they just didn’t work for her. I finally tried smacking, and it did work, but I didn’t want it to be the main discipline tool (There is just something wrong about teaching a child to be non-violent by smacking them that sat ill with me!).
So I separated the issues. I addressed her anger by getting her something she could hit if she needed to. I explained that I understood how she felt sometimes (so angry and boiled up inside she doesn’t know how to deal with it, and a bit scared of the feelings) and that she might need a way to vent, but that it is never acceptable to hit people. Mummy and Daddy don’t hit people. I made a big deal of getting her a hitting pillow, something she could go to her room and hit if she needed to. She had to select it. We went to a local store, tried various pillows (OK honey, now hit this one…). I think she used it once, maybe twice, but she stopped hitting people. I suspect the benefit to her was knowing that I understood how she felt, that I took it seriously and that it was OK to feel that way, but it was not OK to hit people.
Then I set rules for smacking, and discussed them with her as we formed them. She knows that she will receive a smack if she does something so dangerous that I can’t risk a repeat (like running into traffic, or climbing over the balcony railing), and a smack if she is deliberately disobedient about something serious on purpose, after being warned that a repetition will lead to a smack (like repeatedly undoing her seatbelt while the car is going).
And you know, since we set the rules I’ve rarely had to smack her. But if I say I will, then I do.
(Did that sound sanctimonious and perfect? Be assured, when my beloved toddler lunged at me in anger, making stabbing motions and saying “You - kill, kill” I dealt with it in my best competent mother manner. I burst into tears!)
Clucky, you overlooked my thread???
Okay, bend over, this’ll hurt me more than it does you…
You can spank your child. If you are angry enough it will make you feel better.
Mine are 13. I cannot say that I have never hit my children because that would be a lie. But this is a failing of mine. If you make me angry enough, I will feel the need to kick your behind. That being said, I can say that I’ve used this method of “discipline” less times than I have fingers.
You can earn your children’s respect without spanking them. My children respect me and they fear the consequences of any misbehavior. However, their fears of the consequences do not include getting hit.
Consider this. Where I grew up it was not called a “spanking”, it was called “a beating” as in: “Oh, oh Biggirl, when Daddy finds out you broke his walkman after he told you not to touch it; And then when you tried to flush the pieces down the toilet to hide the evidence and got doodie all over the rugs in the bathroom— you’re gonna get a beatin’.”
If you were bad, you got beat. I’d rather not beat my children, it doesn’t work any better and it certainly can be a lot worse than any other form of discipline I could use.
Vanilla, I thought you weren’t a spanker? Besides, shouldn’t you at least ground me first?
AK, that’s one of the reasons we won’t put our children in child care. We’re sacrificing by having my wife stay home. But that’s a whole other discussion for a another time and thread.
I’ve stated my position in at least two previous threads, but here goes:
I’m opposed to spanking on purely practical grounds: there’s no evidence at all that it’s an effective method of discipline, there’s some evidence that for certain parents and kids it can have a negative effect (increased aggression, increased incidence of emotional problems), and since it typically has no effect either positive or negative on behavior, it’s better to pursue strategies that have been shown to work; for me the biggest negative impact that spanking has is that it tends to supplant other, more effective parental discipline strategies.
The evidence is that for most kids, spanking neither improves nor degrades their behavior. I’m not in the camp that argues that spanking should be criminalized. I oppose spanking because I know from experience with my own kids how tempting it can be, when you’re already tired and frustrated and angry, to simply want to smack their bottoms. Effective disciplinary methods are often more time-consuming, require more patience and emotional maturity on the part of the parents, and are frequently more inconvenient to follow through on than simply swatting butts. Disciplining children is hard work; too many people who spank do so as a shortcut, as a way of feeling like they’ve tried to correct their kids’ behavior without having to invest the time and emotional energy required by other methods. And if it could be shown to work, to have a salutary effect on behavior, I know I’d be even more tempted, since spanking (stopping well short of abuse) also doesn’t seem to have long-term negative effects (at least for most kids). Since it doesn’t work, however, I can’t let it take the place of other techniques in my parenting toolbox. Not to mention that I do find the idea of hitting my kids profoundly distasteful.
>>I oppose spanking because I know from experience with my own kids how tempting it can be, when you’re already tired and frustrated and angry, to simply want to smack their bottoms
I completely agree. It’s easier to just start with the
rule ‘nobody hits anybody,’ and not have to worry about when
it’s OK, when it’s anger, etc.
Spanking isn’t child abuse, but spanking when you’re angry
isn’t discipline.
By God my kids are good at pissing us off when they want too,
and they’re good at misbehaving, and there’s a heck of a lot
of overlap.
Since we don’t spank, we never have to look back and wonder if
we were wrong that time - if we went too far, if we were
doing it out of anger.
So I was riding the bus tonight (like every night) on the way home from class when at one of the stops, a woman (middle-aged-ish) carrying a tired looking baby (or really young kid…old enough to walk around with her, but young enough not to make any verbal sense) got on, and another woman pushing a stroller with a really young baby in it (she had a friend with her as well, both were around 18-ish I’d guess). A little ways into the bus ride, the first kid (I’ll use “kid” because he was older than the baby) started bawling like crazy over something. Screaming and wailing loud enough to wake up the dead. He was crying/screaming the entire bus ride until finally, near the very end (last stop), the lady got off the bus carrying the kid (who was oddly enough wailing and clutching at the bus like he wanted to stay on it, when until then he seemed to want to get off it, go figure). The whole time she had been begging her kid to be quiet and threatening him that she’d take him off the bus with her and they’d have to wait for the next one in the cold (and empty threat of course, because she kept saying it as the bus kept stopping and she wasn’t getting up, heh).
Anyway, she and her kid were sitting right beside the quiet baby and the other two women. The baby stayed completely quiet and just looked around the whole bus ride. The two women (the friends) were mumbling to eachother “How embarrassing, ugh” and bitchy type comments (I was sitting behind them so I could hear but I doubt the wailing kid’s mom could). Finally the first woman was so embarrassed that she got off at the next stop and apologized out loud to everyone (the kid was REALLY loud, heh…).
Now the crying kid didn’t seem to be being an idiot (like it wasn’t like he just REALLY wanted that lollypop and figured he could cry his way into getting it), he just seemed like he REALLY didn’t like buses or something. Anyway, the instant the doors closed behind her, the two friends started commenting about how the older woman is such a horrible mother and a bad parent and blah blah blah…
I was tempted to tap the one closest to me on the shoulder and say “It was a kid. Kid’s cry. You cried as a kid, and even that one (point at the baby) will too. He’ll probably do it when you’re in a public place and you can listen to the people around you murmuring about what a bad parent YOU are and maybe you’ll get it.”
I’m not the type to tear down a stranger though…I figure they’ll go through that one day too, which should be lecture enough, heh…
Anyway, it probably doesn’t relate much to the topic (attempt to make it: The parent could have spanked her kid in the middle of the bus, or gotten off and spanked it, but would that have made her a “good” mother then? After all, she “taught” the kid to be quiet on the bus, in theory), but I had to rant it out because the snobbish insults of the two women just irritated the hell out of me so much and this probably wouldn’t have made sense in, say, the Batman VS Superman thread)…
- Tsugumo
Pundit’s advice is pretty much on target.
Alot of parents issue lame threats against their children.
I watched my old boss yell at her kids day after day on the phone, " You better clean the house before I get home or I’ll ground you for a month."
Kids never did their job and they were never reprimanded.
People who issue threats against their kids that are just ridiculous, " Do this or you are dead." The kids know it is a bluff and yank their parents chain. REmember as a kid the built in bullshit meter you had? Kids today still have it.
The number two rule of parenting is: Never make a threat you cannot carry out.
(The number one rule of parenting is : *Never miss an opportunity to take a pee. * )
When kids don’t get positive attention from their parents, they will try for negative attention. When your kids are driving you nuts, turn off the tv, computer, whatever and get down on their level, you will remember the games and stories and fun times longer than that TV show or thing on Ebay that you really really really wanted.
As for spanking: When I spank, it’s discipline. When you spank, it’s abuse.
Wow, I had to back up and make sure that I was on the IMHO board. A bit of spice on a safe, mundane board.
I am Korean, and my wife is black. Two cultures that do not shy away from spankings. We both agree on the necessity of spankings. We do not yet have children, but we do worry about how to handle it properly.
- We believe that parents have a responsiblity to teach our children how the world works. We must teach our children that there are some things that must never be done. We believe that a child that is never spanked is taught that the worst consequence of bad actions is a timeout or a grounding. Just a child abuse can result in murderers, we believe that children brought up without spanking can lead to the Kip Kinkles, and Columbine shootings.
- Many non-spankers have brought up the fact that many children will weigh the fun factor vs. the pain of spanking. I agree that this might happen, but I don’t think this is realistic. I have never thought that any of the things I got a spanking for was worth it. We spankers see this happening everday with non-spanked children. A lot of children seem to think that most actions are worth the timeouts or groundings. They get to the point of considering a grounding as “easy time”, to borrow a jail term.
But as for the original post I think that it is necessary, but must be utilized very carefully. The punishment should be appropriate. Some people have already brought up very smart systems.
Another thought on Spanking that my Mom told me, after I had grown up and started having my own kids.
Spanking relieves guilt in a child. They know they did something wrong, and after they’re spanked, they know they paid for it. They don’t have to walk around with guilt, which can be a big issue with a kid.
IMHO They’re is definitely a time for spanking.