The technovirus issue tied up Cable’s telekinesis, primarily. It wasn’t, as I recall, a huge issue for his telepathy.
Again, not interested in that line of reasoning. If we wished to discuss specific incarnations of each team, that’d be one thing. But to embark on the track you suggest would eventually boil down to “JLA.” “Okay, take out X.” “JLA” “Okay, take out Y.” (Etc, etc) “Okay, now they’re about even, but who cares?” What you’d have left of the JLA wouldn’t be representative.
Sort of the same problem I had with your thread about the Marvel or DC hero who’s the most powerful without being too powerful. Whatever answer we’d achieve by such a process would ultimately have lost all meaning.
How do we know Ion would be immune to psionic power?
Having immense power doesn’t make you extraordinarily mentally stable - just look at Parallax or Dark Phoenix.
As I understand, it tied up a majority of his power overall. That’s why he spent his time fighting and using guns. His powers were tied up keeping him from becoming robodude.
Now he doesn’t use his powers because he can’t control them since he’s never used them fully :rolleyes: Poor guy. All that power and nothing to do with it.
In that case, allow the rest of the people that are interested in such a discussion to have one. You might find the distinctions arbitrary but you seem to be the only one that has an issue with it.
Well, I can see the argument for excluding both. Both Phoenix and Ion were short-term stories and variations on the character. I mean, every time Jean really gets in touch with the Phoenix, she inevitably dies soon after, right? 
And hell, I’d never even heard of Ion before this thread, and I’m a big comic fan (although I’m coming back from a four-year hiatus). I know Kyle’s back as plain old GL now. I say it might be fair to exclude Ion.
So, as for Phoenix, here’s the measure: how many issues of JLA did Kyle appear in as Ion (I’ll also count Green Lantern issues where he explictly acts with the JLA)? How many issues did Phoenix appear in (and I’m talking Phoenix as the cosmic entity she’s have to be to affect this battle) as an active and full member of the X-Men or related teams? If it’s significantly larger than Ion’s tenure, she’s in. If not, well, then she’s out alongside Ion, Spectre-Hal, Superman Prime from the 853rd century, and Cosmic Cube Kyle from JLA/Avengers.
As I said in previous posts, I’m not the one advocating this and the only reason I’m posting about it is that I find Gamera’s resistance to the idea odd. And even if I were, I’m only a very casual fan and don’t have any idea how many issues Phoenix was in and, as far as I remember, have never read a full issue of any DC comic.
The story as I understand it is that the phoenix force and Jean Grey and Rachael Grey are linked. Before Jean died the last time she just reached out and got the phoenix force back. Now that she’s dead, Rachael is manifesting Phoenix powers again.
The Greys, as far as continuity goes, will always be Phoenix.
And I’m pretty sure that Jeans phoenix appearances are much more than Kyle as Ion.
Lastly, the point about Ion (as has been stated repeatedly) is that he is effectively unbeatable. Phoenix is beatable. That’s the difference. That’s why Ion is excluded. It’d be like using quantum Moonstar from that X-Force run. All you have to say is “She turns the JLA into bananas and the beast eats them.” It makes the whole thing into a really short and pointless thread instead of the seven page goliath we have now. 
Yeah, but Ion wasn’t just immensely powerful, he was practically a god (in fact, he was more powerful than any of the gods in DC’s Greek Pantheon) - omnipresent and effectively omnipotent. Assuming that any X-Psionics could even penetrate his mind in the first place, it would take him all of a tenth of a second to turn whoever it was into a pillar of salt or something. I agree that having Ion on the JLA side makes the fight lopsided in a way that having Pheonix on the X-side doesn’t.
The actual team matchups - that is, lineups of the two teams as they’ve actually appeared - are the most interesting to me. Of course, the JLA almost always has someone on the team that could take down any non-Phoenixed X-Team on their own, so even that doesn’t work all the time.
The Teen Titans are really a better match for the X-Men.
Nein. The Phoenix Force is an ancient entity that predates the birth of Jean Grey, and was active enough to acquire a legendary reputation amongst the more cosmopolitan alien races. It’s worth noting that, in the 30th century, a young fellow by the name of Giraud will link to the Phoenix Force. It could be theorized that he’s a descendant of the Greys, but I don’t think we’re given any evidence to that effect.
You find my resistance odd, but I find it odd that you find my resistance odd.
Yes, yes it does. Lemme try one more time to explain my position - Team X and Team Y. Someone asks who’d win between the two. I say ‘Team X, because they’ve got John Doe, guaranteed victory.’ The question’s asked and answered. Yeah, it’s lopsided. Based on the same team-construction conditions for each team. So we start down a slippery slope by saying ‘Team X without John Doe’ - it’s still a Team X victory, without some very hackneyed writing, because of Jane Smith. So when do we stop? And when we stop, what have we achieved? The answer to “Who’d win? X vs. Y”? No. We’ve got “What lineup of X has only a 50/50 shot against Team Y’s full lineup?”
The actual team matchups are interesting to me, too. Heck, do the version with Phoenix. I’ll still pit the early JLI against’em.
I dunno about that one. The Titans don’t have a better psionic profile than the JLA, and lack its powerhouses. Maybe. Raven’s Soul-self is potent, but I don’t think it’s Phoenix potent. You do still Wally, Captain Marvel Jr., and Kyle.
Perhaps, but the JL can counter psionics with magic (Dr. Fate and Zatanna at the forefront, Manitou Raven and others too) and have at least one powerful psionicist (J’Onn Jonzz) and one mediocre psionicist (Maxima). Heck, Ronnie Raymond can even counter a jazzed-up Moonshadow, I’m guessing. [I know more about Firestorm than Moonshadow, but nothing recent about Firestorm and nothing at all about Moonshadow).
Oh, I get your position. I’m just saying that for the purposes of discussion I don’t mind disallowing Ion.
I think a good fight would be to take the current Astonishing X-Men team and put them again the comic book versions of the team from the Titans cartoon - so, the versions of Robin, Cyborg, Raven, Starfire, and Beast Boy currently appearing in the Teen Titans comic.
The original lineups for both teams would be good, too (that is, the Titans once they get Wonder Girl and Speedy).
Agreed. The original question is asked and answered. If you think there’s still some discussion to be had in the original question, well, feel free to discuss it. But if there’s nothing left to discuss of the original question, then what’s the harm in discussing related questions?
I’d love to do so. But not a pointless question like the one I illustrated above. (I mean, to a degree, all these questions are pointless, but…) Discussing specific versions of each team would, I feel, be a logical extension.
Well, both teams of X-Men have their heavy weights. Havoks team has Polaris, Juggernaut, and the already mentioned uber-Rogue. Filling in are Havok, Gambit, Iceman, and Wolverine. Maybe Xorn too, but that I can’t confirm.
The other team has Storm and Marvel Girl (also phoenixing at the moment :rolleyes: ) with Cannonball, Nightcrawler, Angel, Husk, Wolverine (he gets around doesn’t he),and possibly Bishop. This group doesn’t seem as powerful as the first group, but I guess they managed to create a miniature black hole to defeat a techno villain called Fury. Fun stuff kids.
Waiting in the wings are Beast, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, M, Moonstar, Xavier, Thunderbird, and practically every other mutant created in the last thirty years due to the loose standards the Institute uses to hire teachers
What the hell? He’s on two X teams and the Avengers at the same time? Does he have a secondary mutation making it that he no longer requires sleep or something? That’s ridiculous.
Then why read *Elseworlds *or What If? It’s pointless to read about what might have happened in an alternate universe 'cause it didn’t and it won’t.
Three, actually. He appears in the teams in X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, and Astonishing X-Men. Plus his own title. Plus, apperantly, the Avengers soon.
Xorn would appear to be on the team. He’s the one that sucked Black Tom and whoever else into his black hole (ew) an ish or two ago. That storyline, incidently, seemed to show that Rogue isn’t as uber as she would appear to be. Black Tom had her trapped inside a tree and she couldn’t get out.
The current JLA (the big 7 minus Aquaman, it would appear) would pretty much lay waste to them unless Xorn got lucky.
Yeah, but think of the effect of suddenly “being a god” on a human. It can’t be easy on the mind.
I think there is a good chance Phoenix, or possible even Nate, would beat Ion through psionic attacks.
Also, remember that the only reason Phoenix wasn’t completely unstoppable was because she was fighting against herself at the same time.