Since when does comparing ability levels automatically imply arrogance?

[Cryptic_C62]

@Richard_Pearse

Your writing example is a classic case of inserting yourself into a topic when it’s not necessary.

Valid. I agree that inserting a favorable self comparison when no comparison has been called for is an efficient way to come across as a dick.

But let’s suppose that a comparison is specifically asked for. Suppose there’s a talent competition at a university. A student working with the school newspaper wants to do a story about it. He goes up to one of the performers and asks “So, of the acts you’ve seen so far, who do you think should win tonight?” Perhaps a strange question to ask a performer, but let’s just say it happens.

Suppose further that the performer responds in the following way: “Well, to be honest, I feel that I should. The acoustic guitarists just played the same chords over and over again, the rock band that came on didn’t even bother to tune their instruments to each other, and the stand-up comedian just wasn’t very original. I try to always present material that is new, different, and at the very edge of what is possible for me to perform accurately, and I just don’t think anyone else made an effort to do that tonight.”

Personally, I would feel totally comfortable giving such a response if that’s how I really felt. What boggles my mind is that (A) some people would be automatically put off to hear/read a competitor place himself at the top and (B) some performers who truly believed that they were far ahead of the competition would still feel the need to dilute their words or pick someone else to be nice. Why is this?

[astorian]

Darren Clarke has won loads of tournaments, and has earned millions of dollars. Everyone who cares about golf KNOWS he’s one of the best in the world at what he does. Hence, he knows he doesn’t have to brag about it.

If he were going around saying, “I stink,” that would be phony modesty. As it is, if someone tells him, “You’re wonderful,” he can be charming and disarming by saying, “Oh, I can play a little.” There’s no need for him to say, “You know, you’re right- I AM pretty fucking amazing, aren’t I?”

It’s the slightly better than average guys who tend to go on and on about how great they are. The genuinely great usually don’t see any need.

[Bijou_Drains]

I think most people are taught as kids not to brag. It might even come from the Bible. Maybe it’s not logical but that is the tradition we grow up in , at least in the US.

[billfish678]

@Cryptic_C62

Personally, I would feel totally comfortable giving such a response if that’s how I really felt.

Because in that example you’ve just said how good you were and how bad everyone else is (which yet again is your opinion, has a fair chance of being wrong, not a field you are qualified to judge or perhaps all three).

[monstro]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

My entire point is that comparing yourself is not inherently or automatically arrogant- which was the question of the OP. If I was having a conversation like the ones I described, I would not think the other person was being arrogant, just like I didn’t think some of your second examples (in your first post) were. If you were talking to me in a normal conversation and said some of things I wrote or you did, it could easily come off just fine. It might read as proud, or excited or something else. It wouldn’t be a big deal.

However, I totally agree that if it was the basis of every conversation, or said in a haughty tone or for no apparent reason than to brag- then, yes, it would be arrogant. Context and tone matters.

OK, I agree. And I agree that patting yourself on the back or putting yourself out there as the “best” is not necessarily bad form. But even if you are the best, sometimes it’s best not to say so. And sometimes, probably most times, it’s best to try to come across as somewhat modest. “I’m the best viola player in my orchestra” is not a horrible thing to say, if it’s said in the appropriate context (like if someone were to downplay your abilities). But it will not hurt you to say something like, “I’m the best viola player in my orchestra, but I know I could be better” in most other contexts.

@Cryptic C62

Suppose further that the performer responds in the following way: “Well, to be honest, I feel that I should. The acoustic guitarists just played the same chords over and over again, the rock band that came on didn’t even bother to tune their instruments to each other, and the stand-up comedian just wasn’t very original. I try to always present material that is new, different, and at the very edge of what is possible for me to perform accurately, and I just don’t think anyone else made an effort to do that tonight.”

To be honest? I think there’s nothing wrong with the performer saying, “You know, it gave it my all and think I did pretty well. But there were other acts that were great, so we’ll just have to wait and see what the judges think.”

First of all, the performer’s criticisms may be right on the money, but he or she comes across as overly judgmental with all those negative observations. Like they were standing on the sidelines with a notepad the whole time.

Secondly, the performer is criticizing outside of his or her genre. Again, their criticisms may be valid, but it just looks bad for an outsider–a singer, for instance–to shit on a comedic act or a musician. Stay in your lane.

Thirdly, the performer slams the work ethic of the other performers. They could be slobs or they just could not be very good. Two different things. So not only is he or she slamming their performance, but their very commitment to their work. That goes beyond the scope of the question and beyond what is knowable to the performer. Thus, he or she comes across as arrogant.

If the performer wants to be accurate without showing false modesty, they could just say, “You know what? I did awesome out there. I hope I win.” Short, sweet, truthful, and does not insult or offend anyone else.

[RickJay]

@Cryptic_C62

It might be the case that 99% of the human population tolerates or even prefers this sort of false humility, but I can’t stand it.

Dude, it’s not us, it’s you.

If you’ve spent your whole life pouring everything you’ve got into something, and you’re at a point in your career where your abilities inspire others to improve…

Then if you’re good at it, you shouldn’t have to tell people about it. If you’re actually as good as you say you are, why do you feel the need to tell everyone about it? When you’re good, OTHER people will say so.

[Richard_Pearse]

@Cryptic_C62

Valid. I agree that inserting a favorable self comparison when no comparison has been called for is an efficient way to come across as a dick.

But let’s suppose that a comparison is specifically asked for. Suppose there’s a talent competition at a university. A student working with the school newspaper wants to do a story about it. He goes up to one of the performers and asks “So, of the acts you’ve seen so far, who do you think should win tonight?” Perhaps a strange question to ask a performer, but let’s just say it happens.

Suppose further that the performer responds in the following way: “Well, to be honest, I feel that I should. The acoustic guitarists just played the same chords over and over again, the rock band that came on didn’t even bother to tune their instruments to each other, and the stand-up comedian just wasn’t very original. I try to always present material that is new, different, and at the very edge of what is possible for me to perform accurately, and I just don’t think anyone else made an effort to do that tonight.”

Personally, I would feel totally comfortable giving such a response if that’s how I really felt. What boggles my mind is that (A) some people would be automatically put off to hear/read a competitor place himself at the top and (B) some performers who truly believed that they were far ahead of the competition would still feel the need to dilute their words or pick someone else to be nice. Why is this?

Well, your hypothetical response essentially consists of putting the other performers down which is an unfortunate way of building yourself up. It also fails to recognise that the goal of a talent contest is to entertain and that technical ability doest necessarily equate to being entertaining. Ultimately it fails to recognise that your opinion of your abilities, particularly in something as subjective as music, is just one opinion and it’s pretty arrogant to think that your opinion of your own abilities is accurate. A more modest person recognises that their opinion isn’t everything and that the way they see a subjective competition is not the way others will see it, they will acknowledge the strengths of the other performers and hope that their own strengths are enough to win, but they won’t automatically assume this to be the case.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@monstro

OK, I agree. And I agree that patting yourself on the back or putting yourself out there as the “best” is not necessarily bad form. But even if you are the best, sometimes it’s best not to say so. And sometimes, probably most times, it’s best to try to come across as somewhat modest. “I’m the best viola player in my orchestra” is not a horrible thing to say, if it’s said in the appropriate context (like if someone were to downplay your abilities). But it will not hurt you to say something like, “I’m the best viola player in my orchestra, but I know I could be better” in most other contexts.

I do not think anyone is saying that this is the way to have most conversations.

[monstro]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

I do not think anyone is saying that this is the way to have most conversations.

I think the OP is.

Based on the example he just gave us, he does not appear to understand what arrogance is.

[Cryptic_C62]

@Rickjay

Dude, it’s not us, it’s you.

I accept this. This is exactly why I come here: to help me understand the thought processes that normal people go through.

@monstro

Secondly, the performer is criticizing outside of his or her genre. Again, their criticisms may be valid, but it just looks bad for an outsider–a singer, for instance–to shit on a comedic act or a musician. Stay in your lane.

Monstro, I like the way you laid out your thoughts, but the part that I’ve quoted above doesn’t really make sense to me. A hypothetical audience member who has never performed in any capacity has every right to judge whether or not a comedic act is funny or original. If such a hypothetical then goes on to become, say, a drummer, they lose the right to critique comedic acts? Why is it that one must stay in one’s lane if one has a lane, but one can swerve like a mofo if one does not have a lane to being with?

[Richard_Pearse]

@Cryptic_C62

A hypothetical audience member who has never performed in any capacity has every right to judge whether or not a comedic act is funny or original. If such a hypothetical then goes on to become, say, a drummer, they lose the right to critique comedic acts? Why is it that one must stay in one’s lane if one has a lane, but one can swerve like a mofo if one does not have a lane to being with?

They have the right to say what they think is funny or original or whatever, where it falls over for you is that you are presuming that your own opinion of what is funny and original will be echoed by the rest of the audience, that’s where the arrogance comes in.

[monstro]

@Cryptic_C62

Monstro, I like the way you laid out your thoughts, but the part that I’ve quoted above doesn’t really make sense to me. A hypothetical audience member who has never performed in any capacity has every right to judge whether or not a comedic act is funny or original. If such a hypothetical then goes on to become, say, a drummer, they lose the right to critique acts comedic acts? Why is it that one must stay in one’s lane if one has a lane, but one can swerve like a mofo if one does not have a lane to being with?

The role of the performers in a talent show is to woo the audience. The audience is meant to be entertained, so that means it is fair for them to criticize everyone in front of them in terms of their entertainment value. Since they are evaluating everyone on the same basis, then they are fair judges.

A performer is not objective. A performer will not be able to evaluate other acts fairly because they will always value their own art over everyone else’s. And–this is just MHO–they will not understand enough about other types of performances to be able to critique them well. I’d much rather hear another comedian rag on another comedian’s skills than, say, a Mariah Carey-wannabe. Because the latter doesn’t understand all the ins-and-outs of the former’s performance, any critique from them on the subject would be pretty nervy.

It would be like a talent show featuring Steve Martin, Mos Def, and Outkast. If Steve Martin starts talking about how Outkast just plays the same beats over and over and mumbles a bunch of gibberish over them, I’ll be thinking, “Steve Martin doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about.” But if Mos Def says the same thing, then I’ll give his word more weight. Even if I still liked Outkast’s performance more.

But this might just be my thing.

[Terraplane]

@Cryptic_C62

It might be the case that 99% of the human population tolerates or even prefers this sort of false humility, but I can’t stand it.

If you think that 99% of the human population is wrong and you’re right, that’s enormously arrogant.

If you’ve spent your whole life pouring everything you’ve got into something, and you’re at a point in your career where your abilities inspire others to improve, you should be allowed to give an honest assessment of what you can do. Full fucking stop. Anything different, and you’re just insulting the intelligence people who look up to you.

You can acknowledge your own talent without slagging others, in the examples you posed in the OP you brought others down to make yourself sound better. You can say, “I’ve devoted my life to this and I think I’ve done a good job at it, check it out and let me know what you think.” But saying “Bob isn’t as good as me and he’s been playing twice as long” makes you sound like a jerk.

“Holy shit, you’re John Petrucci! You have no idea how important your music is to me! Your playing is so unbelievable that you constantly inspire me to be the best possible version of myself.”
“Eh, I’m not that good.”
“Um… but… you’re my hero…”
“Thanks, but I need to maintain my image by not ever acknowledging my abilities. Have a good day!”
“Erm…”

Or, John Petrucci would say, “Thanks, it’s always nice to hear from somebody who likes my stuff.”

You keep putting these extreme examples up and it’s just silly. Try to split the middle and you’ll come across better, if that’s what you’re actually looking for.

[Cryptic_C62]

Dear all:

When I first created this thread, I had two intentions: to generate discussion about the nature of comparisons and arrogance, and in turn to help me understand the ways that other people think. It saddens me somewhat that neither of these things happened, at least not in a way that I found satisfying. The topic of conversation, as anyone who has been following along has undoubtedly observed, quickly centered on the nature of my comparisons and of my arrogance. Unsurprisingly, there were a number of posts that called my character into question. For a while I tried to dig myself out of the hole, and I kept repeating in my head “Gah, they’ve simply misunderstood you.”

But then I really thought about what people were saying. As much as I would like to be able to dismiss those assessments of my character, the fact is that many of them are true. I’ve let it stew for a while, and I just had a long, therapeutic, insightful phone call with a close friend of mine. I’ve come to a few realizations, some of which will require a bit of background information to make sense.

If it hasn’t already become clear, the example I gave that I felt the most strongly about was about music, which is an accurate representation of my real life: I don’t care much for tennis, writing is something I enjoy as a sort of supplementary skill, but my guitar is everything to me. And while it has always been true (and probably always will be true) that I obsess over improvement and developing my abilities, it may surprise you to learn that there was a very long period of time in which my guitar playing was just for me. I had no interest in playing with or for anyone else. Even though it consumed a lot of my free time, I would hardly even talk about it. I don’t even know how I would have responded if someone asked me how good I was, as my music just never really came up in conversation. I was in a state of mind where I loved seeing myself get better and I didn’t care what anyone else thought.

Only recently did I begin playing in public and inviting people to hear things that I had been working on. A few months ago, I had this weird epiphany moment while at work: I simultaneously realized how much I dislike working at a desk and how much happier I would be as a serious musician. And from that day forward, I kicked it into high gear, both in terms of my efforts to improve and my efforts to perform for people. It felt (and still does feel) very good to be so focused on something. However, a toxic mindset developed alongside all of this; I started feeling very resentful of any guitarist who played easy music, particularly those who had attracted any amount of attention. I essentially thought to myself “Ugh, how can people not realize that he’s shit? I’m a much better musician and people should respect that.”

Fast forward to open mic night. I had spent the previous few weeks composing a piece of music that is very long, very difficult, and very weird. All overhand tapping, lots of different key signatures and time signatures, very bizarre rhythms. I finished writing it the day before open mic night, and did everything I could to perfect it in time. Somehow, I managed to pull it off! It wasn’t a note-for-note perfect performance, but it was pretty damned close. As soon as I hit the final note and heard the roar of applause, this incredible wave of exhilaration coursed through me.

It wasn’t until just a few minutes ago that I realized that that wave of exhilaration came from two places: (A) “Holy shit, I can’t believe I just pulled that off!” and (B) “Hah! That’ll show 'em who’s the best. ME.” It has all suddenly become much clearer to me what needs to change if I want to actually be happy with who I am. I still want people to enjoy my music, I still want to keep getting better, and I still want to play bizarre technical pieces, but I also want to go back to that magical time when it just for me. I want the rush of adrenaline to come entirely from (A) and not from (B). That should be enough for me. This may seem like an inconsequential change, but it really is night and day for me, and I’m almost embarrassed that it has taken me this long to realize it.

All of this also spurred to me to try to change the way I think about my schoolwork. I had allowed myself to slip into this mindset of thinking that it’s all irrelevant bullshit and that I just need to get my degree and get on with my life. My morale and my grades have suffered as a direct consequence of this. I want to get back to that place where I would attack problems without worrying about whether or not they were relevant to my ultimate goal, but to just try to get better at anything and everything because that’s what makes me happy.

It may not be an overnight transition, but I feel like I can now start taking steps towards finding a happier (and less arrogant) version of myself. Thank you all for helping to make this possible.

– Cryptic

[Boyo_Jim]

Oh, so now you have better self-insight than the rest us us too.

[monstro]

Cryptic, I hope you can get back to that place where you’re performing for just you again. Thanks for sharing your epiphany with us.

[jz78817]

@Cryptic_C62

I accept this. This is exactly why I come here: to help me understand the thought processes that normal people go through.

excuse me?

“normal people?”