And to what extent is self-deprecation or downplaying necessary, both to ensure that you feel you yourself are truly humble, and to communicate to others that you are? It seems to me that there is quite a dance involved, in otherwise factual explanation of your more fortunate qualities, your talents, or your accomplishments, in making sure others don’t see it as an unseemly display of ego, or as implying you’re better than others.
I know that no one likes an outright narcissistic, preening, selfish asshole, but I’m thinking of a finer distinction. Most of us fall in the comfortable middle ground between hating ourselves and being in love with ourselves.
(Yes, I am asking this question because I’ve rather often been accused here at the SDMB of ‘sneak-bragging’, outright bragging, being full of myself, etc. Sometimes, it’s because I just don’t feel like mincing words and doing the dance, and I can predict it won’t go over well. But other times, I’m honestly bewildered by how offensive people find what I consider nothing more than the facts.)
I don’t know if that is always true. Case in point - Muhammad Ali
I think modesty and humbleness is over-rated. I don’t have a problem talking about how awesome I am, and I don’t have a problem with people telling me how awesome they are.
It’s said that all extremely intelligent men are conceited, but I’m living proof to the contary. (That is, I used to be conceited, but now I’m perfect.)
But yes, being too right does make you a target. You’re supposed to qualify and equivocate and allow that other opinions might be just as valid as your facts, lest you be accused of being “conceited” or “full of yourself.”
I think the problem with ego is that it can make you blind and lead to some pretty serious mistakes in the right circumstances. Research indicates that there is generally an inverse relationship between how confident someone is in their abilities and how much ability they actually possess.
It also brings out the insecurities in other people. Obviously I don’t want to listen to someone brag about how beautiful they are because, while I am sorta cute, I do not look like a supermodel and never will. I don’t begrudge other women their looks and will usually be quite honest about how beautiful they are, but at a certain point in bragging the message becomes, ‘‘I am better than you because I am better at X.’’ Well, no, pretty ladies, you aren’t better than me, sorry.
That said, I think it’s important to know what you’re good at, and be comfortable being good at it. I’m comfortable saying that I am good at writing, conflict resolution, and synthesizing broad ideas from various perspectives. The danger is when you become so enamored of yourself that you fail to recognize you are a fallible human being, you can be wrong, and sometimes other people really do know better than you.
Even though I despised reading Beowulf in high school, the one thing I remember was this cultural idea that it’s okay to brag as long as you’ve got the goods to back it up. I like that. Bragging as a general rule does not bother me all that much. I think it’s kind of cute, because it really does show people being vulnerable - saying, in essence, ‘‘please approve of me.’’ Most people probably don’t think of bragging that way even while they are doing it, but that’s what it is. It comes from a need to be accepted and that is perfectly human.
It’s a balance. In my mind, a truly humble person is well aware that they have talent, but they’re also aware of their limitation. So, if you’re too humble, you may be underestimating your talent or overestimating your limitations, and thus you could be able to accomplish more than you are. OTOH, if you’re not humble enough, you may be over-estimating your talents or underestimating your limitations, and depending on how it’s applied, you could be just an annoying egoist jerk, or you could even be putting yourself and others at risk.
I think this is part of why you see a lot of really talented people being jerks, because they’re the exception and have that rare talent. But at the same time, it’s not unlike a rich person flaunting their toys in front of a middle class person, or a beautiful person strutting in front of average looking people. So, in that regard, this is perhaps where we see it as being even more important, because it ends up socially isolating people, causing hurt and resentment.
Really, it’s just something that people need to do to both maximize the use of their talents and just socialize with everyone else. Maybe they don’t want to, and that’s fine, but they’ll be criticized for lacking humility.
As olives pointed out, there’s more than one part to it. You might roughly characterize them as genuine humility and faked (okay, maybe “social”) humility.
Genuine humility is what enables us to reflect on our own limitations and faults, and acknowledge that–however talented or skilled or wonderful we may be–we sometimes screw up anyway. If you’re certain of something, sure, be certain…but remember that it’s possible to be dead sure and dead wrong at the same time. Genuine humility is the little voice that reminds us to measure twice and cut once.
Social humility is the presentation of ourselves or our information in a humble fashion. If done well, it offers both grease for the gears of social interaction and a measure of protection for those occasions when we go astray. Presenting information or opinions in a humble fashion often doesn’t make people quite as defensive of their positions as a Pronouncement from On High, which introduces or emphasizes background dominance issues in the interaction. Additionally, it makes it easier to retreat gracefully from a position that is shown to be incorrect; if you haven’t placed your idea on a pedestal, it doesn’t have as far to fall. You don’t actually have to hedge much to present things humbly; it’s more about how you say them than what you say.
I can appreciate what the others have posted so far. I agree that it is a balancing act and in particular Olives who points out that arrogance can often equate to the message that “I’m better than you.”
However, what do you make of this very famous quote?
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It’s not just in some of us; it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.” - Nelson Mandela
From my point of view, I feel that we are constantly bombarded with negativity. Not only are people saying you are not good, pretty, smart enough, but your own mind will do it to you too. If you don’t make a conscious effort to oppose this out of a desire to appear humble, you can be doing yourself a great disservice as it will likely take its toll. I speak from experience on this one.
So I actually see a need to voice out-loud your best features. It’s an affirmation and a defense mechanism. I think it’s a very effective habit.
Muhammed Ali was one of the few people who could back that up and even he got his head handed to him in more than one fight. That and he was entertaining in his arrogance whereas most arrogant people are just downright unpleasant.
One of the, if not the greatest motorbike racers in the world was Joey Dunlop.
There is a true story about him told by one of his competitors, he was attending the North-West 200 road race for the first time and local competitor and multiple champion Joey took him out for a tour of the track, showed him the best braking points, how to take certain corners etc he stayed late helping the new competitor fix problems with his motorbike.
He then went home, slept soundly, came to the race…and blew every other rider away, including the new competitor. No mind-games, trash-talk or needless aggression, just someone supremely confident in his own abilities and no need to boast about it.
A quiet and humble man, and quite possibly the greatest rider ever to set foot on a motorbike. I have never heard anyone say anything negative about him, and given that this is Northern Ireland thats quite an achievement.
There’s also a big difference between who or what we are (intrinsic qualities, those we can mostly blame genetics for, although self-improvement is possible and something to be proud of) and what we have, and have done.
I think most people find it much more annoying when someone seems proud of, or even just mentions, that they have something going for them which they did nothing to earn.
Personally, I have accomplished nothing that most would recognize as ‘something’ with my life, own little of value and don’t make enough money to travel, and have few skills or talents. This is mostly due to flaws and personal problems of mine. These are the facts: it’s not ‘being down on myself’ because I’m not down about it. It’s not self-deprecation; it’s the literal truth. But I don’t feel worse about me when I see other people accomplishing and attaining big or amazing things, and there are a lot of people with very interesting, impressive lives on these boards. So I don’t understand how easily I can make other people feel worse about themselves, or just pissed off at me. Especially considering I’m pretty open here about my many issues: mental, developmental and physical health problems, lack of education, etc.
One of my largest flaws is my general social awkwardness, so…
Yeah, but sometimes there is no danger of that. Sometimes, you just are the best and it is a fact. If you are the number one salesman for 10 years, regardless of how many other salesmen come and go, you can safely assume that you are a hell of a salesman. Nevertheless, humility is still an asset.
Because it keeps your mind open. You are willing to have the kind of conversations that will boost the confidence of the people around you enough that they may open up and teach you something that can improve yourself. And they may also learn from you, since your humble nature makes them feel more receptive and less defensive when sharing ideas.
If one isn’t careful, one can dull their own shine so much that someone can take advantage of them, especially in a cut throat work atmosphere. But there really is a good balance one can walk where they exude genuine confidence while remaining humble.
I strongly suspect there’s a correlation between humility < – > pride and external < – > internal locus of control (the perception/belief that a person has less or more ability to affect his/her life, circumstances, things that happen to him/her). Some sociology or social psychology students should do some research on this (if it’s not already a worn out thesis).
It seems to me that a very humble person would perceive herself to have very little control over her world and the way it affects her and the people around her; it seems to me that a very self-righteous person would believe he has a considerable influence on all things great and small in many facets of life.* The problems arise when perception is incongruous with reality.
Locus-of-control studies typically point out that an extreme perception in either direction can be harmful. An extremely external view would leave a person feeling existential and insignificant, while an extremely internal view would lead a person to take risks beyond his capability. I think the pride/humility issue is similar: If you’re too humble, you won’t give yourself a chance to achieve and grow; if you’re too prideful, you put yourself and others at risk when you embark on something beyond your ability, and perhaps embarrass yourself (at the least) when your perceived influence falls short.
[If you’re too boastful, you wind up being a loudmouthed bore. Sure, you might be a great dancer, but by dwelling on that and nothing else you fail to appreciate how great your coworkers are at computer programming, painting, water skiing, etc.]
As with locus-of-control issues, the best behavior is to work with reality – Jet Li is an awesome martial artist and a great looking actor, but I wouldn’t want him teaching English to my kids; Stephen Hawking is an incredible physicist, but I would’t ask him to fill in as a lifeguard at the beach. Know what you’re good and bad at, and know your limitations.
–G!
“Im not really a brain surgeon, but I had a great sleep at a Holiday Inn!”
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