I have a good friend who hates the term oriental. He cant stand it, he also gets upset when people lump Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Thai, Etc. As one race or culture.
I have been informed, that Asian is in reference to the asian continent, and if you wanted to be more specific refer to the particular culture and country.
Like saying is something is European, then being more specific and stating it is Spanish or Irish.
Me I just get to the specific, I say, Japanese, Korean, Thai. If I dont know I use Asian.
While we’re at it, since Oriental is a rug, Asian is a person, Oriental is offensive, Asian is not, let’s play with that a bit. Since it’s apparently OK to refer to rugs or continents as oriental as long as we’re referring to residents of the area as Asian and not Oriental, is it OK for a southern redneck to refer to rap as “nigger music” as long as he dubs it’s practicioners African-Americans?
And, yes, that was a joke, although the pre-emptive pointing out of sarcasm probably won’t stop at least one or two people from taking up arms.
Yes, but if you don’t know (and MOST Americans will not be able to visually tell the difference between a Japanese, Korean, etc) and have to resort to the word “Asian” you’re just lumping them in with even more disparate cultures. How does this appease a person who’s already getting pissed off because his cultural identity is getting watered down and generalized in the first place?
I could care less how the term Oriental fares in the vernacular but surely there must be a more specific and more suitable alternative than “Asian”. I edited out your analogy of calling someone from Spain a European instead of a Spaniard, but the reverse analogy is a good one for describing why “Asian” is not a great alternative to Oriental.
"Again, YOU are the one who claimed you were only here to discuss how the term “Oriental” came about. I merely pointed out that it was untrue. Please stop trying to turn it around. Your flagrant mischaracterizations are becoming extremely tiresome."
Cite? (sarcasm) Before you reply, read your own words: This is NOT a discussion about how the term “Oriental” came about. This might explain your total confusion about the posts here.
"But again, it galls me when people in this day and age, 20-30 years after the fact, are informed of the change that they have missed by being in their own little world, and then proceed to stamp their feet and angrily shout about how silly and “PC” the world is becoming."
Yes, my “own little world”, the “backwater location” known as “New York City”. Or are you referring to say, China? The UK? Guess what, “dude”: “The World” is not just the West Coast of the USA. It’s not even “The USA”. Maybe you should get out more.
"So are you just making up your own “illogical fallacies” [snicker] now? Maybe I was guilty of Publius Homogenous, eh?"
You mean they didn’t ban “snickering” on the West Coast yet?
Enjoy it while you can, Homo Correctus Ad Nauseum.
Jeremy, I’m not sure it’s because they’re pissed about their cultural identity being watered down - in fact it just might be the opposite. Remember, it’s basically Asian Americans (US born) making these changes.
You might be interested in this site: All Look Same Test. It tests your ability to distinguish between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean faces (18 photos of men and women). Here’s what it’s about:
A very interesting site, and there’s a discussion forum as well (which mirrors the different POVs about the “Oriental is offensive” issue). Take the test. It’s hard to tell the difference! (I scored 8 out of 18)
Here’s an interesting take on the “Asian American”/PC question from a (Chinese female) columnist on the site:
More about perceptions and images (more help explaining the motives of “why”):
I’ve been traveling and didn’t see this until now. YMMV, but let me throw out my standard two cents.
Oriental is a colonial (largely British) term and has an inherent negative bias. Oriens may mean “east of” but 1-200 years ago that wasn’t a complement. Read Kipling.
Oriental broadly speaking has a different meaning today in the US and in the British Commonwealth/ex.commonwealth countries. Oriental in the US generally means East Asia, in the Commonwealth the Indian Subcontinent/Asia minor. In Hawaii it seems that the Asian/Pacific Islander community tends to use the word “oriental” and “Asian” interchangeably, and certainly isn’t the issue that some people on the US mainland make it out to be.
“Oriental is a rug” IMHO is a huge disservice. Oriental defined as a rug is something that came into being in the past 20 years. Also, oft times one hears that Oriental is to Asian as Negro is to Black. Heck that’s not a too poor analogy, but I think obfuscates the issue to mix up two ethnic groups like that. Also, and I’ve seen it on this board, that it’s a short step from someone saying “Oriental is like Negro” to some perhaps well meaning PC parrot insisting that “Oriental is like ngger”.
I’m not the one who is confused here. Apparently you forgot your numerous protests that you are only here to discuss how the term came about. It’s not my problem that you have such a poor memory of what you yourself wrote. All I can tell you is that it’s incredibly frustrating to debate with someone who makes one claim, and then when proven wrong, says “I never said that”.:rolleyes:
First of all, that comment was not directed at you. I said “people”, not “annaplurabelle”. Second, you conflated two of my posts. One post was a response to the assertion that there are locations where people still say “Oriental”. These locations would be relatively “backwater” places. I assure you that “Oriental” is not the predominate usage in New York City, for example. My other post was about people who are in “their own world”, and wasn’t necessarily directed at you either. But I will say this: If you live in Manhattan, and are unaware of the usage of “Asian”, I would be very careful about telling other people that they “need to get out more”.
Actually, I would say that the alllooksame site tests your ability to distinguish American culture. Generally, the people in the test look far different that Asians in Asia, or at least in the humble opinion of this 20 year resident of the orient.
They haven’t “banned” anything in terms of private discourse. Washington State has passed a law that changes the language in official documents the state issues. Corporations do this via communication policy documents - mine has one that says we use “Asian” - States do this via either law or policy documents.
Secondly, it isn’t necessarily American born Asians making these changes. Korean adoptees are a group that I know has been very vocal in their preference for Asian over Oriental - and none of them were born here.
Yes, I understand all that. My reason for citing the Washington bill was to show that “many people” (including some Asians), were unaware that “Oriental” was offensive (as per the Senator’s spokesperson).
To my mind (and perhaps some others), there’s a distinction between “outdated” and “offensive”. As I said, I agree that it is outdated. What I had never considered was the idea that someone would be “offended” by the term (after all, there are still many people who do use it, whether older US residents, recent immigrants, or communities outside the US).
In any case, my subsequent comment to you about political motivations had nothing to do with personal discourse, so I apologise if that’s what has created this confusion about my “intentions”.
AFAIK, the term Oriental had NOT been used in most US formal or govt docs for quite some time prior to this bill. In fact, the only change that was effected in Washington state by this bill was the wording of a single, inactive legislation regarding “solicitation of minority contractors for construction of city water mains”. That’s why I called it a “political gesture”. Again, sorry for the topic tangent.
C’mon, it’s real simple. This guy Said plucks the notion that the term “Oriental” is offensive out of thin air, when most people, including most of those who might be identified as such, don’t give a rat’s ass about it. A bunch of prissy PC ninnies quickly pick up on the notion that here’s a way to feel superior by criticizing others for “offensive” language, and run with it. That’s all there is to it. That’s all there ever was to it.
Errrr…, damn. Sorry, accidental. And I can’t seem to edit it, is that the way it’s supposed to be?
But I just wanted to point one thing out. I know I’m repeating others, but here goes…
Oriental is not offensive like the “n-word” is, it’s offensive like the word “negro” is. It’s not necessarily offensive, but it’s dated, and it doesn’t sound quite right. In both cases is smacks of an era where the parties referenced by the term were not exactly being treated with respect.
Obviously, some Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese/Filipino/etc. people don’t find it offensive, but that’s not the universal case. I would in fact imagine that the term “negro” went through this same progression.
Using the term Oriental is not derisive, but should be avoided. Why? It makes some people unhappy. Why does it make those people unhappy? I’m sure there are various reasons, the one that comes most immediately to me is the abovementioned reason.
I’m not entirely sure if a consensus can be reached between the arguing parties, but…, given the situation, I can surely understand why the inquiring minds want to know exactly why the word is offensive. It’s hard to say, but apparently they don’t much like the idea of simply forcing a word out of their vocabulary to appease the other party.
Lastly, Evil Captor, do you really think you’re doing anything productive at all? If you want to make a point, at least try to write something constructive instead of being a jackass.
Y’know, dakravel, you’re not really supposed to call specific people names in Great Debates. It IS OK to say someone’s opinions are stupid, but not that they are stupid. So you could have said, “Your ideas have all the coherence one would expect of your average jackass” and be OK. Simply calling someone a jackass – not OK. Read the Forum rules if you don’t believe me.
My post did have a point but you missed it, so I’ll spell it out for you. I’m actually quite proud of that post – I think it clearly described the nature of the resistance to identifying “oriental” as a term of bigotry.
The idea it expressed, albeit dramatically, is this: The objection to the term “Oriental” is not a widespread greivance held by a lot of people as a result of frequently encountering it as a put-down by bigots, either intentionally, as is generally the case with “nigger” or unintentionally, as is generally the case with “negro.”
“Oriental” as a term of bigotry is an idea coined by a wack-job ideologue, i.e., Said, picked up on and promulgated by PC types who found it a nifty club to beat others with. Most Asians could give a rat’s ass about it either way. Most Americans and Europeans could give a rat’s ass about it either way. The notion of “oriental” as a term of bigotry is not a legitimate one because only a few academics and ideologues care about it.
Ok, fine, you aren’t a jackass, you’re just acting like one. You’re insulting people for being offended by something. I myself am Asian American, and while I’m not offended by the term Oriental, I would generally prefer to be called Asian. I understand what you’re trying to prove by your mockery, but it’s just that, mockery. It’s not constructive. I never heard about this case up in Washington, and neither have most of my friends, but they too also prefer the term Asian. Now, I don’t entirely know where you’re from, but I’m in a place where there is a significant Asian population (near Sacramento), so this isn’t just theory, this is actually how things have happened for me. It’s not ‘just a few academics and ideologues’, for me it’s something that most of my friends know about, both Asian and Caucasian.
Now, negro was not originally used to be derisive. It was merely a term to describe a particular people. Now it’s considered old-fashioned, and in most cases, derogatory. How is this any different than the term Oriental?
