This is an utterly false characterization of the situation. You’re just making up what you wish to be the situation, because it would fit in your narrow worldview, I guess. Nobody’s beating anybody with a club; they’re just asking you to use “Asian” instead of “Oriental”. What on Earth could possibly be so hard about that?
False. Most Asians prefer “Asian”.
False as to Americans. They may still commonly use “Oriental” in some European countries, but as far as Americans go, “Asian” is the preferred term.
I’m not really following you on this. It’s already been explained time and time again that it’s not as strong a statement of bigotry as are other words, but that doesn’t change the fact that “Asian” is preferred. The fact that not everyone gets incensed about it doesn’t mean that nobody cares at all. And calling the majority of people who do care childish names like “prissy PC ninnies” really doesn’t help your argument at all.
I can understand where some of the resistance is coming from. Since I first got involved in this debate a few years ago on the boards (which I would rather not have people read 'cause I was quite the ass), I have been lookiing for the “smoking gun” on why Oriental went from being a common word to a bigoted word.
Through the mid 1980’s on politically correct PC University of California campuses, this was not an issue. Asian was much more common, but not one batted an eye if you said Oriental. Back then, Oriental did not mean a rug. I was up on Chinese and things Asian with a vitrolic politically corrent Japanese American girlfriend that had no problem with me calling her an “Ornamental.” That was the way it was.
Somewhere in the past 20 years, things changed. I was out of the US for most of that so I missed it until a couple of years ago on this board. What caused the change - I can’t find any smoking gun. you ask people, and most don’t have the foggiest notion. I’d really like to know. I’ve got a few guesses.
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter why (except to satisfy curiousity). What does matter is that there are enough people in the US that prefer to be called “Asian” and not “Oriental”. Once you understand this fact, one would be a jerk to keep using the word “Oriental.”
Caveat being that this is an Asian American thing and YMMV throughout the rest of the world, especially ironically enough in the “Orient.” Irony aside, once you know you should make an effort to call people by their preference.
China GuyCaveat being that this is an Asian American thing and YMMV throughout the rest of the world, especially ironically enough in the “Orient.”
** Irony aside, once you know you should make an effort to call people by their preference.**
Of course China Guy, one-on-one; it’s the polite thing to do.
In larger groups, unless the designation is intended to be offensive, or is taken to be offensive by the group being refered to, it is best to refer to the traditional term until it dies a natural death rather than go through a litany of artificial propped-up clumsy word constructions that only reflect the whims of those who can command the vogue.
Finally tracked down some facts re “who”, “when”, “where”, and “why” (the creation of “Asian American”) as per one of the older threads (I didn’t think you were an ass, btw). A more satisfying answer than “oriental is a rug”, IMO.
Posted them in the GQ thread; here’s the link: Answers!.
In hindsight, it might have been more appropriate to title this thread “Since when is discussing the term Oriental offensive?”
Anyway, I have to credit Yellowworld (an Asian American activist forum) for leading me to the info, and a variety of perspectives about the question of “offensiveness”. Can’t resist closing with the New York moderator’s opinion: Click.
(full discussion here)
Do tell. It has already been conceded by several posters who share your general viewpoint, if not your vehemence, that many Asian and non-Asian Americans are not aware that “oriental” is regarded as an offensive term. I bet if you were to bring the topic up to most Americans, it would be met with a well-deserved “hunh?” or an equally well deserved “so what?” because not a hell of a lot of people use the term Oriental to describe Asians. It’s just a bunch of ideologues and PC types getting their panties in a wad over a largely imagined slight. As Milum has suggested, the term is well on its way to dying a natural death, let it do so.
Nobody’s beating anybody with a club; they’re just asking you to use “Asian” instead of “Oriental”. What on Earth could possibly be so hard about that?
I have no need to call Asians Orientals, or vice versa. I’m just expressing my opinion of the people who are making a big deal out of it.
**The fact that not everyone gets incensed about it doesn’t mean that nobody cares at all. And calling the majority of people who do care childish names like “prissy PC ninnies” really doesn’t help your argument at all. **
The fact that almost no one gets incensed about it, and many others don’t even know about it means it’s not a problem. And I think I very clearly expressed the opinion of many of us who feel this is mostly just a cheap language scam to garner some moral superiority with my choice of words.
Many is not equivalent to most as per your earlier claim. I’m sure some people still do use “Oriental”, but FAR, FAR more use “Asian”. It’s obviously not an exhaustive study, but try doing a simple google search on both words. Here’s how many hits you get:
Oriental - 6,630,000
Asian - 41,300,000
I mean, dude - it’s NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Or try “Oriental Student Union”, and put it in quotes so it only includes that specific title - see how many hits you get (I didn’t get even ONE SINGLE modern organization with that name, only historical references. Then try “Asian Student Union” in quotes, and see how many hits you get.
As for my “viewpoint” - I don’t think you really understand it. If I have shown any vehemence, it’s in response to those who use disingenous arguments and try to misrepresent what I am saying. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve said that I harbor no ill-will towards any person who innocently uses the word “Oriental” out of ignorance. The only thing that bothers me is the arrogance of those who say, in effect: “I don’t care what Asians think, I’m going to keep calling them Orientals because I don’t see anything wrong with it.” Again and again, I have stated my point: It doesn’t make sense that the arbitors of what name a person prefers to be called should be the one who is calling them the name. I don’t get how it logically would be up to me, a white person, to decide what name an Asian person would prefer for me to call him. If I do that, I’m just disrespecting his opinion. So it’s not the word “Oriental” itself that’s offensive; it’s anyone who does not respect the opinion of others that’s offensive in my book.
I think you have it 100% backwards. What I’m seeing is a bunch of anti-PC reactionaries getting their panties wadded because they are somehow interpreting this whole thing as “being told what to do”. In this thread, who is being called “prissy PC ninnies”? Who has been characterized as “just wanting something to bitch about?”. The epithets getting hurled around are against this supposed group of “PC-types” (whatever the hell that means). And all for nought - the word “Asian” is in widespread usage in the U.S. to the point that it doesn’t even need to be open to debate. It’s like debating whether one should say “you” or “thou”. And notice that the thread was not started by a “PC-type” complaining about the word “Oriental”, but rather someone questioning, and later complaining about the word “Asian” supplanting “Oriental”.
Yeah, you guys are making a big deal out of it.
It’s only a problem because you and others are MAKING it a problem.
And this is exactly what I’m talking about. You seem incensed at the fact that “Asian” is preferred, to the point that you rail against it as a “cheap language scam”. Rather than just accept the modern usage, you seem to want to argue against it and vilify those who support the modern usage.
Keep in mind that language not only changes, but is also always in the process of changing. Regardless of what you knew before reading the OP, everyone who has followed this thread should know by now what the currently preferred term is. Whether or not you use it is your choice. Whether or not I complain about your choice is my choice.
*I guess, like some of you, George objected to the “PC guidelines” (read: good manners) of his day.
We cannot know at this point whether or not the term Oriental will one day be viewed with as much disgust.
It is a fascinating field of study. Have you considered courses at the university where you teach?
If you keep hijacking your own posts, I will have to agree with you. (Wrist slap!)
I hope that your original post has been addressed as adequately as it can be on a message board. Some people spend their entire lives trying to answer questions like that.
Since you’re from the South, I would have thought that your mama would have taught you better manners than a post like that. Was I wrong? (Guess who was a bitchy school marm. :))
Language has many mysteries and that is one of them. Sometimes it is just not logical.
Changing the wording often changes our perceptions and that can make a big difference for at least a while. That allows some of us to get a foot in the door. Consider the difference in the use of the words man and boy for adult males, for example.
I’m a sixty year old Southern agoraphobe who is from the backwaters, but I have known about the change in preference from Oriental to Asian for fifteen or twenty years.
BTW, do you prefer to be called Sweetie Britches or Little Lady? (Just making a point…)
Sweetie Britches*, isn’t it fun to have been around long enough to watch the language change around you? Why, I used “person of color” so long I was actually able to see it come back INTO favor!
Whadya mean that was the one you DON’T like? How was I supposed to figure it out, from CONTEXT?
Zoe, misquoting another member is a no-no at SDMB. SAustinTx never posted that (guess who did?). Maybe you should try actually reading a thread before you cherry pick arguments.
And, if you had bothered to actually read my cites, you would know what real live “Asian Americans” (gasp!) have to say about it. Surely, you’re not expecting me to take your word over theirs… or are you? Aren’t you also one of the non-Asians who should allegedly “have no say” in the matter? Here’s a funny post from SDMB (in the GQ thread of the same subject):
If you want more laughs at your own expense (assuming you’re capable of such a thing), read what they (in my cite) have to say about white “PC” liberals who decide to intervene as “saviours for the benighted Orientals”. Believe me, “PC ninnies” is the “sensitive” term for what you’re doing.
But by all means, feel free to continue to throw hissy fits, regardless of whether or not the people you are “defending” are actually offended. As I’ve said, I accept the reality that freedom of speech means I can’t expect freedom from speech. I’m sorry if you can’t seem to come to terms with that reality.
blowero: I’m not holding my breath for a cite to “prove” your assertions against me. Apparently, there’s a waitlist: Cite! I’d snicker, but I’m trying to be the “bigger” man about it. Good luck in your future “debates”.
dropzone (or do you prefer “insensitive jackass”?): As Tony Soprano says “Whatcha gonna do?” I’ll say it again: It’s ironic that the same people who are always advocating “sensitivity”, always seem to enjoy indulging in snide remarks over actual dialogue. Is there a “PC” term for “hypocrite”? Thought not.
Ah, but you must be referring to one of my SENSITIVE personalities when you speak of me as “advocating ‘sensitivity.’” My snide, insensitive, jackassish personality is the dropzone posting in this thread. :rolleyes:
Anyway, as I have explained MANY times before, I’m not HYPOCRITICAL, I am OF TWO (or more) MINDS ABOUT EVERY TOPIC and, as sometimes happens, will work out my thoughts on an issue at the keyboard so my opinions seem extremely changeable (which they are). It just LOOKS like hypocrisy to people who stick to a single position. YOU can try seeing both sides of an issue and see how long it takes before you are accused of hypocrisy.
Anyway, when was I snide? Or, better, when was I snide during the past few days, not counting this reply? Why, I’ve been on my best behavior lately!
Yikes, talk about out of context… I wasn’t referring to you, I was commisserating with you! Come on, it’s me, Sweetie Britches!
In any case, sorry for the mix-up.
Signed,
Apologetic insensitive jackass
(but I’m thinking of changing it, since it will probably “conjure up” the negative connotations of “insensitive jackass” as defined by others in this thread
My apologies to SAustinTx for crediting her or him with Annaplurabella’s comment.
Not at all. You don’t expect me to accept your cites over the word of people in my neighborhood, do you? Or my former students? You don’t expect me to accept your cites as the only source of information of the subject, do you?
I am non-Asian. I have never suggested that I have no say or that you have no say. I have suggested that it is polite to defer to the wishes of the persons being addressed or described.
Your comments are becoming quite personal which is also a no-no at SDMB. That is not my rule, but theirs.
Would you have the courtesy of pointing out what I said that you consider to be a “hissy fit”? I have come to terms with the reality that people have the right to choose what they wish to say. Do you disagree?
My apologies to SAustinTx for crediting her or him with Annaplurabella’s comment.
Not at all. You don’t expect me to accept your cites over the word of people in my neighborhood, do you? Or my former students? You don’t expect me to accept your cites as the only source of information of the subject, do you?
I am non-Asian. I have never suggested that I have no say or that you have no say. I have suggested that it is polite to defer to the wishes of the persons being addressed or described.
Your comments are becoming quite personal which is also a no-no at SDMB. That is not my rule, but theirs.
Would you have the courtesy of pointing out what I said that you consider to be a “hissy fit”? I have come to terms with the reality that people have the right to choose what they wish to say. Do you disagree?
I thought Zoe was the one I called “Sweetie Britches.”
[Barbarino voice]
I’m so CONFUSED!
[/Barbarino voice]
(dropzone’s “authoritative without authority to back it up” personality takes over)
Whereas this discussion has been done to death with no particular resolution and with no end in sight AND whereas it has started to get personal AND, most importantly, whereas few, if any, of us actually use “Oriental” to describe Asian people anyway, despite feelings some may have that the whole issue is a “tempest in a teacup” making this whole debate pretty much pointless, can we just let it sputter to a stop?
Here in Toronto, 1 in 3 is a visible minority. 1 in 10 are Chinese. Stats Canada
I am a Canadian of Chinese decent.
I have never considered the term Oriental offensive.
I have never heard the term Oriental used in an offensive manner.
I have never heard anyone complain about the term Oriental being offensive.
My exposure to this phenomenon have been restricted to message boards and seems to be a west coast US thing. I sympathize with the OP in his confusion of when and why this change happened. Discussions on message boards and web sites about this topic have not given concrete answers. I suspect it is due to all the racial tension in the US and the asian community trying to find some way to voice their displeasure.
Asian, Oriental, Chinese. They are just geographic labels of increasing specificity to me.
No, I don’t expect you to accept my cites (and the word of some posters here) as the only source, but I do expect that you accept the fact that there is no nation-wide (much less world-wide) consensus on how people feel about this, and therefore, my situation might differ from yours (as anyone’s situation might differ from anyone else’s). This reality is not reflected in your statement here:
Now, why would you choose to complain about a choice that doesn’t offend the person addressed, and might possibly be their preference? And how can you justify threatening complaint here and now, in the absence of anyone actually addressing anyone else, or even stating intention to offend?
Beyond those questions, I would ask you specifically to cite where I have used any racial or ethnic slur as a form of address - either here, or in any other thread. Further, cite where I have said that I did use an unacceptable term to address someone, or that I was even intending to do so in future (after all, you did address your post to me, didn’t you?).
On what rational basis can you claim this “repeated-ad-nauseum-in-this-thread lecture” (in absence of offense, and w/o any probable cause of future offense), is warranted? I call that a hissy fit.
It is obviously not your rule. I’ll ask you how these remarks (posted prior to my comments to you) can be taken for anything but personal and/or sarcastic:
“It is a fascinating field of study. Have you considered courses at the university where you teach?”
“BTW, do you prefer to be called Sweetie Britches or Little Lady? (Just making a point…)”
Well, we’re all “just making a point” when we post, aren’t we? Would it have been more acceptable if I added that disclaimer, or a roll eye smiley, after my “personal” comments to you? I’m fairly new here; I’ll try to remember all the “tactics” that allow personal comments to slide.
dropzone:
No matter. I asked my neighbour, and he said it was now unacceptable to call either Zoe or myself “Sweetie Britches”. Please conform to this standard at once, and for god’s sake, don’t ask why!
What are you arguing this point with me for? Did I not say already that Oriental is on its way to dying as a term? Did I indicate any preference for either term? I could give a rat’s ass either way, I thought I made that clear. It’s just the snippy, self-righteous tone of the PC crowd that I am opposing – quite properly, I believe.
I don’t get how it logically would be up to me, a white person, to decide what name an Asian person would prefer for me to call him. If I do that, I’m just disrespecting his opinion. So it’s not the word “Oriental” itself that’s offensive; it’s anyone who does not respect the opinion of others that’s offensive in my book.
So, you’re completely cool with those Asians who prefer to be called Orientals? And you’re also completely cool with the use of the term Oriental when it’s appropriate, frex when a writer is referring to “Oriental mysticism”, etc.?
(… Lotsa stuf snipped here …) It’s only a problem because you and others are MAKING it a problem.
So, to paraphrase, "the only reason we’re having a fight here is because you guys are hitting us back when we hit you. Well, we’re real sorry 'bout that. But I think I have a valid point, I’m really comfortable in my viewpoint, and you haven’t said anything to make me change it.
**And this is exactly what I’m talking about. You seem incensed at the fact that “Asian” is preferred, to the point that you rail against it as a “cheap language scam”. Rather than just accept the modern usage, you seem to want to argue against it and vilify those who support the modern usage. **
[/QUOTE]
No, I have no problem with using the word Asian to refer to people from Asia. It’s just the matter of manufacturing the use of the term “Oriental” as a mildly bigoted affront that I have trouble with. If you could simply admit that “Oriental” is a fundamentally harmless term whose “bigoted” origins all come from the mind of an intellectual wack job who was mostly wanting to show that it was a put-down for Arabs, I think we cold all go home happy. Because you see, it really IS a cheap language scam.
Expectation often leads to disappointment. Among your fellow academicians, Asian is now generally accepted as preferable.
I have not accused you of doing so.
I have not accused you of doing so.
Only in part.
One post was all I had made when you accused me of having a hissy fit (your term). Now you say that that was a"repeated-ad-nauseum-in-this-thread lecture"(again, your term)? Do you consider all statements of belief that are in opposition to yours to be hissy fits? (Interesting debating technique!) Do you consider all of the statements that I have made to be about you?
You had indicated previously that you are a teacher. You had also indicated that you were interested in, in your words, “the mechanics/politics of terminology changes into the vernacular of the teeming masses.” This was one of my areas of study. Since it is not something that can be covered in a message board, much less a thread, I was trying to encourage you. You are not the first at SDMB that I have encouraged thus.
These were just two of the names that were used against me forty years ago for the purpose of being dismissive of my adulthood. The women who protested the use of demeaning terms made a positive difference in my life and in the lives of many other women – even those who may not realize it.
There are people who continue to use labels for women that I find objectionable even after I have told them that I find them dismissive. Their motives are suspect.
I wished to illustrate the inappropriateness of casual labelling and chose two that particularly bugged me.
For clarity’s sake, I should have been more specific, personal attacks are not permitted in GD.
If you wish to debate ideas, political correctness or labelling, I don’t mind continuing an exchange with you. But if you continue to insult me on a personal level as a debating technique, I will move on to something more appropriate.
