Ten years? Try six months!
However, I have given up on EITHER of you two ending this tennis match. 
I was a debate coach, not a tennis player. 
I just thought that maybe I had been out of the loop on that one.
??? I never said I was a teacher. Maybe you’re confusing me with someone else? I can only guess that you are talking about the poster I defended in a pit thread (she mentioned being a teacher). IIRC, we have only met up in that thread, and the one about “sensitivity”. FTR, I’m a former nurse and hosital admin. I’m in the process of certification for teaching, primarily because there’s a worldwide shortage (I live outside the US part of the year). But there’s no way you could have known that before now…(???)
I’ll be 40 in February. I have no problem with you or anyone else attempting to make me feel younger (I mean that). I’m also 5’ 10", so “Little Lady” would probably be off the mark for a pot shot too.
Considering the confusion about my identity, let’s put the personal remarks business aside for now. Agreed?
If you read the thread, you would note that I had done the research to find out who coined the term “Asian American” (as per the OP of an earlier thread), and some background on Asian American history, to help explain why Oriental might be seen as offensive by some. I really was curious about the fact that some were so vehement about it, some others didn’t care, while some had no idea.
The AA forum I cited had an interesting discussion about it amongst college-age AA’s; many of them also feel (like Evil Captor), that it was an idea fostered by academics and activists, and encouraged by a “liberal” agenda (many Asians are not political liberals). It’s notable that none of them considered the use of the term by a non-asian as an intentional slur, even if they preferred Asian.
The article about AA history I cited leaves off with the curious question of whether or not it’s a satisfactory identity beyond being a convenient political consolidation tool. The students in the forum reflect this - the terms are still in question - by them. Yes, language changes, but there are always reasons why, and surely those reasons are a valid topic for discussion. Agreed or not?
This is all in my posts/cites. So why did you come in with the idea that I wasn’t interested in discussing it? Or that I (we?) needed a “lecture” on courtesy yet again? (the “ad nauseum” applied to the whole thread) That’s not a “different POV” - it’s an insult. Are you saying you wouldn’t find it insulting if other people repeatedly questioned your sincerity/character, simply because your experience differed from theirs? You were a teacher. Tell me how it is appropriate that I should be insulted for asking questions.
Because earlier, you said this:
You have nothing to back that up. The fact is that most Asians prefer the word “Asian”. The reason I showed you how overwhelmingly prevalent the word “Asian” is was because I’m curious as to why you believe that most Asians don’t care. Since you do seem to be cognizant of how widespread the usage of “Asian” is, is it your belief that a minority of “overly PC” Asians are forcing the majority to go along with their preference?
Sure - although I don’t happen to know any Asians who prefer to be called Oriental. It’s sort of a moot point, because I think you’d be pretty hard-pressed to find any Asians who have such a preference. Back to our analogy, how many blacks do you know who want to be called “Negro”?
Yes. Is this a trick question? There are times when it’s fine to use “Oriental”, like Oriental rug; what we’re talking about in this thread is calling people Orientals.
It’s not so much your viewpoint that’s in error, it’s your facts. The majority of Asians do prefer to be called Asian; your statement that they don’t “give a rat’s ass” is false. That’s what I was saying.
Hmmm…I’m thinking that I must have missed something in this thread, because I don’t know who this “wack job” is to whom you are referring, nor what Arabs have to do with it. So if you’d be so kind as to point me to the post or link that I apparently missed, then I could address what you’re saying.
There were many previous posts that explained very well why “Asian” is preferred over “Oriental”, and it really seems quite reasonable to me. But I don’t think it’s fair for me to continue to debate the point with you until I figure out where you’re coming from.
Wow, I guess you did a search on me to try to dig up more stuff to bitch about - kinda scary.
Judging from the cite you chose, I guess you consider Beryl_Mooncalf to be a brilliant debater. That explains a lot.:rolleyes: You 2 are peas in a pod.
Guess you’re not trying too hard.
BTW, Zoe - I would recommend you stop trying to debate with annaplurabelle - his tactics leave much to be desired; you’ll just end up frustrated.
blowero:
The fact remains: a fresh load of crap but still no cite, right?
But you have no interest in facts, or learning something here. You’re just interested in shitting on this thread and insulting people - including the Asians who have posted with a view contrary to your absolutist position. Trying to pass yourself off as “Mr. Sensitivity” is a joke; that’s about the only thing you’ve been able to prove.
Search? It’s a concurrent thread on this page. Searching down how many others you’ve mischaracterised is more tedium than you’re worth. But I’d bet “scary” might apply.
Again, no cite.
I have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think I’m going to provide you with more arguments that you can warp to fit your strawman characterization, think again. It’s bad enough that you’re now stalking me in other threads just to dig up stuff you can warp, and then try to insult me with - but there’s no way in hell I’m going to give you more material to misconstrue. I tried to debate with you, but you have no interest in consistency, and seem to have no qualms about deliberately misinterpreting people’s posts, and continuing to do so after they point out your error. I can only assume that anything more I say to you will be distorted by you. Sorry - no gonna go there.
More lies. I did no such thing. Please, stop with the lies already.
That’s funny, because I never said any such thing.
Yeah, sure - if it stalks like a duck…
Me too. I think that too many people in here are getting all huffy and offended at honest and innocent questions.
Especially since I could have SWORN that there was a similar thread in IMHO a few months ago, explaining why it was somewhat disrespectful to use the term “Asian”.
IIRC, that thread wasn’t saying that “Asian” was offensive, but that it tended to somewhat disrespectfully lump all people of “??? east asian?” “japanesechinesevietnamesephilipino.etcetcetc”??? together without differentiating them.
To which (again, IIRC) the general consensus of the thread was “don’t call them asian, call them Japanese/chinese…etc…” VS. “we’re being disrespectful if we can’t tell”?
And that kind of attitude IS a bit silly and oversensitive. After all, we “white” folks aren’t really “white”. And no one can tell (without hearing us talk) if we’re from England, or Russia, or Canada or France etc.
PARTICULARLY since we’re NOT saying “and we insist we get to continue to call these folks what they don’t want to be called”…
But instead are saying/asking “okay, we’ll change (again), but what brought this on”?
I don’t get why mere innocent questions (like Anna’s who DID merely ask a question and didn’t appear, imho, to be “arguing” for the right to use oriental), are being met with such anger, sarcasm and resistance.
I don’t want another argument (i.e. more “crap”).
I have been requesting a cite, to back up your mischaracterisation of me, and the entire thread.
I’ll refresh your memory:
No cite for that, because it is WRONG. Here’s one example:
And another:
Apparently, you’re more interested in shitting on this thread, than on accuracy. More of your crap:
Another mischaracterisation, since I had previously said (about usage):
Back to the OP:
And yet you disingenuously say this in your last post:
At this point, you’re just hilarious. I don’t have to accuse you of lying - the facts speak for themselves.
quote:
What’s the difference between “Oriental” and “Asian”?
“Oriental” is a term which has negative connotations for many Asian Americans because it reflects European and American colonialistic attitudes of the past and present. It is also a term that has always been used to exotify people and products. i.e. Exotic oriental teas/women/attitudes/customs/foods/etc. A general rule of thumb is “Oriental is for rugs, not people.” Besides, no one uses the term “Occidental” to describe white folks. Additionally, “oriental” is a term which describes location in respect to Europe (and to England specifically). “Asian” is in respect to nothing.
Okay, I am freely admitting complete ignorance of this subject here. Sorry, but this…(the above statement) STILL doesn’t explain why it’s “negative” or “offensive”.
What do the authors of the above statement mean by “colonialistic”? Why is “exotic” suddenly offensive? I’ve always understood that particular description to mean something that is BETTER than generic, not lesser than.
So I’m an idiot, and I don’t understand the meaning of colonialistic(and have never seen it even in context before this). But I’d like to see some concrete examples of oriental having been used in a generally accepted way of being “negative”.
Like the aforementioned “YOU orienta. you” type tone. I think THAT is what the curious are looking for when they say "when did this become offensive
Actually, Canvas, I’ve pretty much given up on getting that answered.
In the absence of an expert, here’s what I’ve learned so far:
There are 2 kinds of language change.
First, there’s a “change from below”. In this kind of change, a term starts with a small group of people.
Then, gradually, it seeps into the general population. Example: “groovy” (as mentioned by the OP). It’s now outdated, but it’s not in any way “offensive”. It died a natural death, much like “far out”, “23-skidoo”, “uptight and outtasight”, etc.
Second type is “change from above”, where a person or group of people decide on a change.
Then, they impose that change on everybody else.
People adopt this kind of change because they’re told to, not because they think it’s groovy. 
The big difference is, in order to impose a change, the previous term needs to be discouraged, so it dies out more quickly.
Because “Oriental” to “Asian” was a “change from above”, the term Oriental had to be justifiably demonised.
The justification doesn’t always make sense to the general population. The questions here prove that.
Cites:
Despite your assertion that you’re “curious about how, when, and why they came to their preferences”, it’s quite obvious to all that you are here for a little “PC bashing”. But somehow, unbelievably, you managed to take what I had said, turn it around, and claim that I was trying to limit the discussion.:eek:
Thanks to you, this thread already IS shit.
Up to your usual tricks, I see. I really can’t tell you how annoying it is when you keep taking things out of context. Here’s the entire exchange:
That’s real cute how you left out the post that I was responding to, and went back to a previous post of yours that had nothing to do with that exchange. You’re walking a very fine line as far as board rules are concerned.
Look, if you want to misinterpret when I use the word “people” as referring specifically to you, and get all snippy with me, don’t cry when I get snippy right back at you.
My God - I haven’t the slightest idea why you quoted this; it wasn’t even directed at me, it was a response to Esprix. That said, Austin’s post isn’t even consistent. In one part, he refers to “interest” in the change, but then later reveals his true colors by referring to “challenging” it. It’s the same thing you’ve been doing, e.g. pretending that you’re just here to “discuss” the whens and whys, all the while getting in your little cheap shots against it.
Nothing disingenous about it - it’s pretty accurate. Although I DO admit that I let you sucker me back in after I said I wasn’t going to submit to your cheap games. Oh well, I guess I just can’t stand to see lies about me sit there unanswered.
Can you kids take this to the Pit now? In your own words, you’ve turned this thread into a meaningless catfight between the two of you.
Esprix
Couldn’t have said it better myself, Esprix.
Did anyone else remember the IMHO thread about Asian/Oriental?
My memory could be faulty (s’what happens when you get ancient :D), but it seems as if people, and people from large areas whom I’d trust to know a lot more about this than me, thought that Asian was a bit too generic and slightly “disrespectful” as well.
I thought that the OPs question was interesting, and I didn’t take his somewhat smartaleck-y posts to be tantamount to defending the right to use the term.
Seems as if this is a classic case of someone “reading” someone’s tones and intentions in a way they didn’t intend. I hope someone does come along who will be willing to answer our curiosity though…
Okey doke. Consider it dropped (by me, anyway).
Perhaps this will help:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/91/O0119100.html
I think “colonialistic” refers to the British Empire, where the usage of “Oriental” was popularized in the 17th Century to describe anything East of London. As the above dictionary note says, it stems from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as “exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs”.
It doesn’t really mean “better”, it means “strikingly, excitingly, or mysteriously different or unusual”. I hope I’m not being “Mr. Sensitivity” or a “PC ninny” by saying this, but the way I understand it, Asian-Americans want to be thought of as individuals, not “exotic” people.
I think this has been covered. It’s not really a slur in that way. Maybe I missed it, but is anybody contending that it is a slur in that way?
Well, despite your assertions, there’s ample evidence that those Asian Americans who are even aware of the controversy are hardly united on this topic. Whyncha let 'em speak for themselves?
Are you planning to poll every Asian in the country to get some kind of consensus, Captor? 
Esprix