Are YOU planning to do so, Esprix? Seems to me that if there’s even a small minority of persons of Asian/Oriental origin who are cool with the term Oriental, by making the term a pejorative you’re dissing THEM, however much others like “Asian.” Do their opinions not matter to you?
“Exotic” implies a relative/reciprocal relationship.
When I was living in India, I was exotic to them, and they were exotic to me.
Where’s the negative connotation in that?
I don’t get you, Evil Captor. When I tried to show you how widespread the preference for “Asian” is, you berated me for not acknowledging that you already said “Oriental is on its way to dying as a term”. But now you’re right back to arguing that there isn’t any consensus on the matter. Well which is it - Is Asian overwhelmingly preferred or is it not? If you say Asian is not overwhelmingly preferred, then you ought to be receptive to my providing evidence to the contrary.
I believe I have. Besides letting people speak for themselves, you also have to listen to what they are saying.
I disagree that using “Asian” in place of “Oriental” is dismissive of anyone’s preference. There may be Asians who, as you say, are “cool” with the term Oriental, i.e. they aren’t necessarily OFFENDED by it, but that doesn’t mean they PREFER to be called Oriental over Asian. It’s a rare person who would actually take offense at being called an “Asian” as opposed to an “Oriental”. I think you’re confusing “being cool” with something, and preferring that thing. I’m “cool” with a turkey sandwich for lunch, but I certainly wouldn’t take offense if you offered me steak & lobster.
I’m happy to use the term “Asian American,” but I do have one complaint: for those of us who have lived in the UK and in the States, it’s very confusing. In the UK, the term “Asian” is used exclusively to refer to persons of South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, etc.) descent. Many times in the US I’ve referred to friends on my cricket team as “Asian” to other people, only to be met with blank stares or comments of “I didn’t know Chinese people played cricket.”
Yes, I know one can further explain myself. But what’s the point of a descriptive term if it doesn’t actually describe what you’re trying to describe?
You’re right, Duke! From now on I will refrain from discussing cricket. 
Yes, I mentioned this awhile back - I think the usage is different in the U.K., and we’re mainly talking about U.S. usage here. Americans tend not to refer to Indians, Pakistanis, etc. as Asian, so there’s really no confusion in that regard. I agree it might be confusing to travelers in the same way that one would be confused by our calling chips “fries”, lifts “elevators” and lorries “trucks”. But then that’s the sort of thing you ought to expect when you visit a foreign country.
Actually, I have, to a point. Every single Asian person I’ve ever met - and since the majority of my dating history and my circle of friends are, and have been for many years, of Asian decent from various countries - has referred to themselves as Asian. Not one single person referred to themselves as Oriental.
Sorry, but that’s proof enough for me, and I daresay I’ve met literally dozens of more Asians than most non-Asian Americans posting on this board.
Let me know what number becomes a big enough consensus for you.
Esprix
blowero: I suppose one thing I’m trying to get at is: why is calling people of South Asian descent “Asian” in the US wrong? How come “Asian American” only refers to persons of Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. descent, and other persons of Asian descent have to be stuck with a qualifier?
blOreo
*Oh, your *DSM IV 313.24- Selective Mutism ** is in remission now. :rolleyes:
blowero
The name mistype was truly unintentional…
PS, thanks for the more detailed info.
quote:
Why is “exotic” suddenly offensive? I’ve always understood that particular description to mean something that is BETTER than generic, not lesser than.
No, I realize it doesn’t “really” mean that. But from the context of what one sees in in popular culture and casual conversation it’s generally “spun” to mean something along those lines.
For instance an “exotic” beauty, flower, food etc, generally (again, as one sees them used in casual conversation and popular culture) means something unusual, but somehow “cooler” and “better” for being “exotic”.
I’m sure that Asian people have their reasons, but I, for one, would be THRILLED if someone said I was “exotic”.
However, that said, don’t worry!! I won’t be using the term oriental anyway.
quote:
But I’d like to see some concrete examples of oriental having been used in a generally accepted way of being “negative”.
Like the aforementioned “YOU orienta. you” type tone. I think THAT is what the curious are looking for when they say "when did this become offensive.
Perhaps it had been, but it seemed to be rather vague and I had hoped for something a little more of a concrete example of some sort.
Also, no, I didn’t see anyone contending that it’s been used in that way, (in this thread I mean) I was just curious what the extent of “offensive” was insofar as why it had been determined no longer appropriate.
In other words, generally when someone says something is offensive, I’ve usually thought of “offensive” as being more along the lines of profanity or derogatory comments etc.
NOT that I don’t think that Asian folks have a right to not be thought of as exotic if they don’t wish to!!! (just trying to wrap my brain around how it all translates out as offensive, which to me carries a MUCH stronger meaning than what asian people seem to feel regarding the term oriental).
I’m not sure what your point is. It almost seems like you’re saying that Brits do it a certain way, so that’s the “right” way. There’s no “qualifier”; I think we just draw the line between “Asia” and “Middle East” at a different point. You call them “Asians”; we call them “Middle Easterners”. When you say they’re of Asian descent, you are using your convention, not ours. So what you would call “West Asian” (or South Asian - I’m not really sure what your convention is), we call “Middle Eastern”. I’m guessing it’s more a function of East/West rather than North/South, since Singapore, Indonesia, and Malaysia are further South than India, yet people descendant from those countries would still be called “Asian”. It’s really not determined by integrity of land masses, if that’s what you’re getting at. After all, we never refer to Canadians as “Americans”, either. Besides which, Europe is contiguous with Asia anyway, so we’d have to start calling Europeans “Asian” if we did it that way! What it really comes down to is that it’s just the convention that we happen to use. Even if we went back to calling them Orientals, it wouldn’t change anything, since we still don’t refer to Pakistanis and Indians as “Asians” anyway.
There’s really no confusion the way we do it. It only seems like a problem when you try to superimpose British conventions onto ours.
I don’t think they were using it in that context in the quote you were asking about. Haven’t you ever seen old American movies where Asians are depicted as odd people with strange customs, with savage men and submissive women? When the author of the quote refers to “exotic”, I think it’s more along the lines of “strange, mysterious people from a far-off land”, kind of exotic. What he’s saying is that Asians don’t want to be stereotyped in that way anymore.
Also consider that something that you might think of as a compliment can very easily be unwanted when you apply it to an entire race. Would it be complimentary to assume a Jew is good with money, or that a black man is a good dancer? Ordinarily, those things would be complimentary, but when used as a stereotype, they are not.
I think you’re just inventing a strawman. Nobody is claiming that the word is any more offensive than people think it is. It’s not a epithet, and nobody is claiming that it is. It’s simply an outdated term with some negative connotations.
Ever been a minority? It might make sense to you then.
A: Hey, let’s beat a dead horse.
B: OK.
A: Is it dead yet?
B: Barely.
A: Sigh… we’re not beating it hard enough!
Ahem. With that disclaimer, I will say that I am an “Oriental” and really do not mind the term at all. I guess I have heard it used enough times in a neutral context that it really carries no emotional slur or insult in my mind. I think it’s kind of silly that to be told that I should feel offended at something I’m not. That being said, if some “Orientals” do find it offensive, then I guess it may be worth avoiding. After all, if some “Niggers” doesn’t mind being called such, it still probably wouldn’t be OK to go around blasting that term around.
Still, I reserve the right to Oriental-ify my speech as much as I want, for I think it does indeed sound spiffier than “Asian”, as some have been alluding to. And nifty terms like “The Orient Express” seem to make it fine in our language and don’t really seem to be attached to any racial hatred, so I can’t see why we can’t reclaim “Oriental” (if indeed a lot of Asians are offended by it). The bigots can have their “niggers”, “chinks”, and “gooks”, but I want my Oriental!
- Windwalker, Champion of the Oriental Cause
blowero, I did a Google search slightly different from yours – one on “Asian+Studies” and another on “Oriental+Studies.” Asian Studies brought up 3, 090.000 links; Oriental Studies had 51,100 hits.
I scanned a few pages to see the origin of the Oriental Studies links. Without exception (on the ones that I checked out) they were non-American sources.
It will be interested to see if such esteemed universities as Cambridge will change its usage over the years to come. Since the UK interpretation of Asia is different from in the USA, they may not feel the need.
Duke, is the term Middle-Eastern Studies used at all in the UK?
When I was a child, we used the terms Asia Major and Asia Minor when naming the continents (I think). Are these terms familiar to any of you? They seemed to have passed completely out of common usage. I don’t even remember exactly what they meant.
My point, blowero and Esprix is this – I don’t think anybody SHOULD be trying to dump Oriental as a term in favor of Asian as an exercise in PC language control – which is exactly what it is, in many cases. As has been thoroughly established, the term Oriental is not widely used as a pejorative. It’s not used as a pejorative at all that I know of.
Some hyper-sensitive types will insist that it’s bad, but I think we should let that be their problem. Let the term Oriental live or die by its own lights.
Exprix, if all your friends prefer Asian by all means call them Asian – I wouldn’t DREAM of imposing any PC style language rules on you.
Duke:
This is incorrect. In the US, “South Asian” is used to denote people from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan (denoted as “Asian” in the UK). They are definitely NOT referred to as “Middle Eastern”, in either the US or the UK. Here is only one of many cites available:
They are sometimes included under the political umbrella term of “Asian”; sometimes not. There are some South Asian communities who feel the term “Asian” has been co-opted by the more influential East Asian communities (i.e. Chinese, Japanese, Korean).
Basically, what used to be considered “Oriental”, and is now “Asian”, is really “East Asian”.
Uh, annaplurabelle, I didn’t say that. Somebody else (I can’t see who) did.
Zoe: Not where I was–it would have been part of the Islamic school, IIRC. But we did have South Asian and and East Asian studies, named as such.
blowero: The funny thing is, I’m not British. I lived in the UK for seven years before moving back here. I guess I’m trying to say: why should “Asian American” only denote those of East Asian descent in America, and why should “Asian” only denote those of South Asian descent in the UK? Neither term is particularly precise, or even that useful, seeing as how during the last 20 years there has been significant South Asian immigration to the US, and significant East Asian immigration to the UK.
To me, calling people of East Asian descent in the US merely “Asian” just doesn’t cut it, not unless people of South Asian descent are deemed “Asian” too.
I have heard Asian-Americans (East and South) use the term inclusive of both East and South Asians. I suspect the US connotation “Asian=East Asian” and the UK connotation “Asian=South Asian” are due to assumptions made mainly by non-Asians.