Duke, I know you didn’t say that, that’s why I attributed the quote to blowero (inside the quote box?).
I was pointing out to you that the information blowero had given (in response to your original question) was wrong. Particularly as to referring to people from India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh as Middle Eastern.
Read my post again? They can be deemed Asian (at least, according to the US Census, and many Asian Political groups. Here is a list of “Asians by Ethnicity” according to the 2000 US Census:
Chinese
Filipino
Japanese
Asian Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Korean
Vietnamese
Cambodian
Hmong
Laotian
Thai
Other Asian Pacific Islander
Polynesian
Hawaiian
Samoan
Tongan
Other Polynesian
Micronesian
Guamanian
Other Micronesian
Pacific Islander, not specified
Other Asian, specified
Other Asian, not specified
Try hearing it every day of your life and see how “thrilled” you are by the time you’re 30.
Which leads nicely into this:
Regardless of whether it’s a slur or not, it’s obvious that many, many members of the community (if not a majority) are tired of the term and have decided, of their own accord, to self-reference as “Asian” instead of “Oriental.”
WHY IS THIS SUCH AN ISSUE TO SOME OF YOU?
We are. We’re not using it anymore. How is that not letting it “die by its own lights?”
And I don’t think anyone is “imposing” any such rules on you, either.
But how is “Oriental” a better choice than Asian? According to previous posts, Oriental means “from the direction of the rising sun”. I guess I’m not getting how that’s supposedly more specific than “Asian”. If you want to start a campaign to use East Asian and South Asian in the U.S. (although I still don’t get how East and South can oppose one another - shouldn’t it be East and West? ), be my guest. But how exactly would reverting back to “Oriental” be of any help? It’s etymologically just as vague, if not more so.
I see what you’re saying about Indians and Pakistanis being “South Asians”, and I apologize if I misspoke; I just don’t think we use it much to refer to people. I kind of browsed around CNN’s website for awhile, and found several articles referring to Middle Eastern people, as in “Two Middle Eastern suspects were detained today…”, but I didn’t find anything of the nature of “A South Asian man did such-and-such…” It seems like it’s more often used to describe the region, or in a statistical sense.
But at any rate, conceding the point that Indians, Pakistanis, etc. are South Asians, I still don’t get how it’s confusing. Americans would never call a South Asian simply “Asian”, so “Asian” clearly remains descriptive of East Asians. I don’t have to call Pasadena, CA “North Pasadena” to distinguish it from South Pasadena, even though they’re seperate cities.
What it all comes down to is that these are just conventions, and I’m not seeing how “Oriental” is intrinsically better than “Asian” as a convention.
Yeah, I noticed that too, Zoe. When I did my google search, I noticed that the preponderance of the hits for “Oriental” were U.K. websites. But it’s interesting to note that “Oriental Student Union” doesn’t get any hits, or very few at least. I wonder if that’s an indication that university administrators (who determine the names of the courses) are lagging behind what the students are doing, or if it’s just an indication that East Asian students in the U.K. are less politically active than in the U.S., and simply tend not to form alliances.
… When a South Asian man driving from work at Jersey City to his home at Franklin Township approached a stop sign, a group of people threw garbage and stones at … http://www.brownsasa.org/saturdayschedule.html
ArthArts gathers South Asian-American performers at Gaston Hall
… The second monologue, written and performed by Jay Tuli (MSB '03) of ArthArts, depicted a South Asian man “fresh off the boat” and his futile efforts to … http://www.artharts.com/press/
Matchmaking made easy: we’re the best virtual cafe to get to know other South Asians - Safe, secure, and anonymous. … http://www.desiplanet.net/3us/
NamasteTV.com - #1 South Asian Television Network in America
Our programming is produced in New York in a style that South Asian Americans can relate to. http://www.namastetv.com/main2.htm
I’ll use the same argument used about “Oriental”: We’re talking about people, not places or things. As I’ve said, many South Asians feel the term “Asian” was co-opted by the East Asians, and would like more of a voice in Asian American politics. Some examples:
From the 14th annual conference of the Asian-American Journalists Association:
Sreenath Sreenivasan, co-founder of the South Asian Journalists Association and associate journalism professor at Columbia University, stated incredulously that ‘‘Mainstream journalists have told me, ‘I didn’t know India was in Asia.’ South Asians have been the forgotten minority. (We) need an awareness that South Asians are not just one set of people. South Asians are the largest minority in 19 states.’’ http://www.gannett.com/go/newswatch/2001/august/nw0817-1.htm
A Part, Yet Apart: South Asians in Asian America
(Asian American History and Culture)
by Lavina Dhingra Shankar (Editor), Rajini Srikanth (Editor)
From the Publisher:
The first comprehensive study of the peripheral position and invisibility of South Asian perspectives within Asian America.
From the South Asian Journalists Association (SAJA) Stylebook:
Asian, Asian American: Be careful of this usage when talking about those of Asian origin. Is your reference really about all Asians or only about East Asians and/or Southeast Asians. (For example, an American reporter might write about the “Chinese New Year being important to Asians in the U.S.” South Asians are a part of the Asian American community, and they don’t care about Chinese New Year.)
South Asian: Term for people who trace their origin to the Subcontinent. Preferred to East Indian, which should not be used. 2002 estimates for South Asians in the U.S.: about 2 million.
South Asia: All-encompassing term for the Indian Subcontinent, used to differentiate from East and Southeast Asia. The seven countries of South Asia: Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. http://www.saja.org/stylebook.html
I hope that Windwalker can reclaim the word 'cause I kinda like it, but I think that is his fight and not mine.
Blowero, I had the same issue that you do. I believe that in your opinion, Oriental is a perfectly good word that a relatively small group of people in the US decided to get their panties in a twist about. And I concede that there is probably some validity in that view.
It’s easy enough for the catch phrase “Oriental is a rug” to be repeated ad nausem as a “reason.” Those of us that remember when Oriental was not a rug, may find this “reason” asine. Certainly I do.
Using an analogy of “Oriental is like the word negro” is reasonably on the mark although it carries connotations of one ethnic issue over to a different ethnic group. But then I’ve heard well meaning people explain that as “Oriental is like ngger”, which I have yet to find a reasonable source where the word Oriental was ever popularly equivalent to a word such as ngger.
I personally find the PC crowd that mindlessly parrot the above two catchphrases and call you a racist if you ask for a “real” reason to be quite irritating. It’s hard to get a real debate going when the only reasons a person can come up with are two catchphrases.
By the 70’s most universities in the US renamed their departments from Oriental languages or Oriental studies to Asian. I asked my old Chinese professor about this, and he didn’t know of any watershed point but said that in the 1950’s it had become a bit distateful in the scholarly community.
I don’t think there is a smoking gun about the term Oriental. It was a colonial term and therefore inherently biased. Read Kipling, who was probably a pretty good assessment for that time and place (who btw calls Chinese "Khitai (Chinaman) rather than orientals or asiatics on p. 5 of Kim). Asiatic is another word that we don’t have to go into here, suffice to say that Asiatic was much nastier than Oriental in it’s time, yet today many people don’t realize that context (although most Asian Americans do). The Harvard Asiatic Review is the last scholarly holdout I can think of.
I have lived in the Orient for close to 20 years, have a degree in Asian languages, speak Chinese fluently, speak basic Japanese, spouse and daughter are PRC citizens, etc. IMHO Oriental is a decent word although I have always used Asian or the ethnicity/country of origin when known.
All that is moot because there are enough people in the US who for whatever reasons don’t like the term these days. Common manners implies that you shouldn’t use the term.
Funny how the same people who were bitching about the world becoming so “PC” because we don’t say “Oriental” any more, are now getting all “PC” themselves about the proper usage of “South Asian”.
No, actually I haven’t seen any movies like that. I’m not much of a movie goer, nor TV watcher (except Discovery and TLC, and assorted CSI type shows, both real life and learning channel types).
I underSTAND that it could or might be. I can see why anna was getting frustrated with you, you seem to be misconstruing questions to be comments/opinions of some sort.
Much like some of the others here, I was expressing curiosity, and using examples to show WHY and in what WAY I was curious as to this “sudden” occurance.
I am NOT trying to say that it’s not likely to be in some way offensive. Just trying to describe why, in this somewhat limited forum how those of us who aren’t quite “getting” this by using examples regarding REASONS we aren’t getting this.
Yes, NOW we are starting to understand this, but PRIOR to this thread, and prior to us gathering information by asking questions is what I was describing insofar as why we were perplexed etc.
I’m not “inventing” anything. As I explain above, I was describing WHY I, and others like me were a bit perplexed PRIOR to this thread, and asking more questions regarding this topic. I wasn’t claiming that anyone WAS claiming that it was an “epithet” etc etc blah blah.
I made it QUITE clear that I was asking if something along those lines had happened, and if that was why it had been considered offensive. I was NOT claiming that something along those lines had already happened. A question regarding something is NOT stating that such a thing happened. The REASON I was asking this is, that like a lot of people who “didn’t get the memo” I’m trying to figure out how it all came about.
Stop being so touchy. No wonder you were having people in this thread getting all cranky with you.
You know? I made it QUITE clear that I was utterly ignorant of this subject. I’m asking honest questions in order to understand someone else’s viewpoint.
And as I described to blowero my descriptions are not there to say “and this is the way it should be” but to explain that PRIOR to people who ARE cognizant of this situation explaining it to me (and others like me) THIS is the sort of thing that causes us to think the things we do etc.
Getting all snotty and touchy because someone is expressing honest curiosity and trying to “cure” their ignorance is HARDLY a way of “fighting” it.
BTW, I’m a woman. And I came of age in the 70s, so yeah, I’ve been in the position of being looked down upon for a “minority” status in the world.
Nothing like the glass ceiling to assure you that you aren’t part of the “good ole boy” network. Also, one is not assured some pristine charmed life merely by virtue of being caucasian.
Why are “SOME OF YOU” not getting that we’re MORE than happy to never EVER use the term oriental, but that we’re simply asking questions regarding how the decision came to be since many of us did NOT “get the memo”???
Why is asking “how’d this happen” creating such STRESS and angst?
I’m sure that Asian people have their reasons, but I, for one, would be THRILLED if someone said I was “exotic”.
I’m 44 and female, and a blonde, and cursed with a “cute” little 10 year old little girl voice. I’ve answered the phone at least 400 times only to be asked “is your mom home”?
I’ve probably heard every blonde joke there is about 14 bazillion times.
I’ve been nicknamed “blondie,” “sweetie,” “sugar,” (and ON and ON) on nearly every job I’ve ever been on.
Occasionally it gets old. But I’d much rather be nicknamed “blondie” than have people sneer “that old hag” behind my back.
Again, just because someone is white does NOT mean that they have no possible way of understanding how something could be offensive, but for CRYING out LOUD, give them a chance to ask without jumping down their collective throats!!!
FTR, I understand, NOW that some would consider it offensive and WHY, but prior to people answering here in this thread, I did NOT.
And THAT is why I posted such examples as “Exotic has always meant a compliment to me” (meaning PRIOR to my asking questions here) type posts. To explain how and why a person who did NOT previously understand, might have come to believe something erroneously.
You know? Others in this thread have been open and honest about both their ignorance of this subject and that they’d like to know how and why this came about and is considered offensive etc.
But, and not just with my posts (which were VERY clear that they were asking for info, and NOT labeling or stating things), those answering are getting very touchy and taking it personally.
Do you want to inform us? Or take out your frustration on us? We’re not the “enemy”.
[hijack]CanvasShoes, if you want to be exotic, let me be your image consultant. First, we will change your name to FlamencoShoes.:)[/hijack]
I can understand that you can be interested solely in having the questions of when and where and why answered. But not everyone who has asked these questions has been as reasonable and open as you.
Several people have tried to answer the original questions. I don’t know if there actually is an authoratative source that can nail it down. But if this thread were about just the question, I don’t think it would ever have been in Great Debates.
This is from the OP’s second post to this thread:
I believe that that is the post that set the tone of this thread.
This is a real cool link, and one I have unsuccessfully looked for in the past couple of years.
Heck, first time I got involved on this subject on the boards, I went 5 pages before coming around that even if “Oriental” was co-opted by a buncha dorks, I was an ass if I insisted on using the term in the US. Believe me, I googled, emailed about 20 different university’s Asian Studies Departments, Asian student groups, etc. Never got a smoking gun. Recieved very few replies beyond the “oriental is a rug” IMHO dumbass opinion.
anyhoo, glad to read that “Are you yellow” and when I get time, will try to see if I can find some related materials. Thanks
As you can see, the OP apologised and explained, as did many so called “unreasonable” questioners, time and again. On the other hand, maybe it was “unreasonable” of me to let your completely unfounded “teacher” remarks slide, even so far as to offer an explanation on your behalf. What do you think Zoe?
I don’t suppose the UCLA press releases crediting Prof. Yuji Ichioka, in addition to acknowledgements in numerous AA history books and sources, is considered “authoratative”. Maybe you should double check with your neighbours and former students and get back to us (just making a point).
Note that the OP was a newbie; also, he hasn’t appeared here since the “tone” of this thread was decided upon by the “courtesy and sensitivity advocates”. As a relative newbie myself, I’ll say I now completely understand why the “edit” function is disabled for members. So many seem too anxious to re-write history, both in this thread, and in real life.
I thought it was funny and ironic that the self-professed “fighter of ignorance” turned out to be so ignorant of the facts. But then, comedy is so subjective, isn’t it?
I think that you have misjudged my beliefs, motivations and intentions – whether you intended to or not. I think you have twisted and mischaracterized my words – whether you intended to or not. I think that it is foolish to assume that you know someone else’s motives and should therefore not offer an explanation on behalf on another.
A few months ago someone at SDMB said that she or he was a teacher and had to face her students the next day with the news that another student on campus had fallen to his death. (At least, that is the way I remember it.) I thought that you were that person.
(If anyone knows how to locate that specific post, I can at least show the origin of the mistaken identity.)
Do you always react so vehemently to suggestions that you might find certain courses of study interesting or that you might be an academic? Here is a link to a thread where I posted information about linguistic studies for someone else three weeks ago:
My comments to you about pursuing a course of study were meant to encourage, not ridicule.
I was a teacher, not a harpy. I do not try to control language. I do try to influence thinking, as do most Dopers, I think.
None of the comments to CanvasShoes should be construed to be about you or your particular sources, annaplurabelle. Perhaps you would have understood my meaning better if I had said that I believed that there was no one authoratative source.
I’m glad that you pointed out that this post was also from the OP. It further supports the idea that she or he set the tone of this thread. In my opinion, that kind of comment belongs in the Pit. But, IANAM.
I certainly learned from my first posts at SDMB and survived to post another day. I hope that SAustinTx will also.
I also hope that I have responded to your concerns sufficiently and that you will have no further misgivings concerning me.
This is from the OP’s second post to this thread:
quote:
SAustinTx: And isn’t that what’s really so damn cloying about political correctness in the first place? Not the ideology behind most of the ideas so much as the school marmish “hand slap” mentality behind it: they’re really just looking for something to bitch about, are they not?
Please read the above paragraph again…NOTE where he says “not the idealogy behind the ideas”.
I can understand how this statement might have been misconstrued. But what I saw it to mean is “they” meaning the “they” that come UP with these things, NOT the “they” meaning Asian people themselves.
So yeah, his question might be considered to be a bit cynical and snotty, but it looks to be against the establishment that is always foisting silly things upon us as what we’re supposed to have “already known” (if we were “decent” people), NOT against any particular minority group.
And as such, it might be a teensy bit premature for members of a minority group to get angry at those of us who don’t know.
Maybe there are people in this thread who’ve asked these questions in a “what the hell??” not very reverant and properly respectful way.
But I haven’t seen anyone suggest that because we’re perplexed or were (key word WERE) ignorant that we (we darn redneck white folk :)) should then simply be allowed to continue to use words we now know better than to use.
Sorry to run this off in the ditch and hijack it, but it seems that THAT needed to be made clear before it went much further.
Perhaps look at it this way…
We silly white folks have been going along seeing words like “exotic” and oriental used in travel brochures, popular culture, various reading material etc as meaning "unique, interesting, beautiful, fascinating. And you know how Americans are always bowled over by that which is unique from their own “boring” country.
Hollywood tells us Lucy Liu=exotic beauty
Flower shops tell us certain plants= exotic decor
Travel agencies try to get us to visit beautiful “exotic” places.
In OUR minds, (again, silly old us), the term has come to be considered something “good”.
Now, we come in to this thread and we’re told “what the hell is wrong with you??? How’d YOU like to have been called ‘exotic’ every day of YOUR life”?
And we’re gobsmacked. HuhnnnUUUH? Exotic (Lucy Liu) is now “bad”???
Okay, so maybe some in this thread didn’t express being perplexed in the appropriately “respectful” terminology. Some of the answerers were still incorrectly interpreting their questions to be comments/opinions.
And IF those people would relax a little and stop letting themselves be so easily offended. Or, perhaps (here’s an idea) BEFORE they start attacking maybe ask if the person really meant what they were thinking they might mean.
(meek smile) How about that?, maybe it would help.
Exprix, the problem that I and others have isn’t that we’re just dying to use the word “Oriental.” It’s the tone some of those on your side of the issue have that anyone who uses the term under any circumstances is ingorant in a "benighted’ sort of way, or more likely is a bigot. You will not admit to holding such views, but I think you DO hold such views from the tone of your posts.
I have encountered this attitude before: in fact, many of my liberal brethren adopt it so unconsciously and naturally that they refuse to even admit that “PC” exists, which is kinda funny since the ones who deny its existence who are generally its finest exemplars.
Frankly, the notion that a conference of academics (whatever their ethnic makeup) found “Oriental” to be offensive doesn’t exactly leave me brimming with confidence in the notion that it is – academics are notoriously twitchy and one-sided on issues like this, witness the torrent of bilge that typically streams from many women’s studies programs.
I personally am offended at PC attitudes, I do not think they truly belong to liberal thought at all. They are much more in keeping with the self-righteousness of the moral conservatives, another group I have no use for.
Zoe, that is exactly the explanation I offered in my second reply to you. A simple acknowledgement in your next post on this thread would have put the matter to rest (or a correction if it was wrong). Your subsequent silence led me to suspect your motives were something other than “mistaken identity”. Can you understand that? Also, the original comment was taken in the context of the entire post, which certainly couldn’t be described as “encouraging”. Replying to me as if I were someone else is misjudgement on your part; I was responding to that.
Underline is my emphasis. As it turned out, the OP was correct in his presumption about “PC folk”, wasn’t he? So, thanks for reinforcing a negative stereotype. Was that the goal?
Note also that the comment was not directed at a specific member. It was not a personal attack on any member, so your idea that it belonged in the pit doesn’t seem to apply by any SDMB rules I’m aware of.
AFAIK, it is the OP’s perogative to direct the discussion on his own terms. He apparently wanted a “morality lecture free” discussion, as per the part of his quote you snipped mid-sentence:
I see Canvas Shoes already covered the first quote, as I did 2 pages back. I’m sorry, but your rationale for the subsequent and continuous sniping (much of it directed at specific members, and in lieu of any meaningful content) doesn’t hold water, in the context of the entire thread.
What he said. Just another reason why I can’t self identify as either a liberal or a conservative.
), be my guest. But how exactly would reverting back to “Oriental” be of any help? It’s etymologically just as vague, if not more so.
