I addressed it specifically but evidently you didn’t get it.
You want to draw a conclusion with very little evidence. Be my guest.
I understand your opinion here. I don’t completely
disagree. This bout of silliness started when you said I was ignoring that particular issue and I correctly pointed out that I hadn’t. I also correctly pointed out that we didn’t know their reasons for denying the Imams a flight. Thats not an attempt to minimize the issue. Simply noting the facts.
You obviously think they had no good reason. Okay. You may be exactly right. As I said, they probably should have apologized , given them a refund and still flown them to their destinations. Since we don’t know the reason I choose to withhold drawing a conclusion. I’ve seen plenty of customer merchant disagreements in my day and it isn’t usually all one sided.
I don’t see why the airline would refuse the Imams service for some worthwhile, acceptable reason, and then not tell the press. Look at the amount of heat it’s generated for them; it’s not exactly a PR disaster (though IMHO it should be), but it doesn’t show them in the best light. So what reason would they have for not saying “He’s our excellent reason for what we did”?
I don’t think they had an *excellent *reason. I only suggested that a few heated words were exchanged after they were taken from the flight. I’ve seen customer merchant relations deteriorate a time or two when someone feels wronged.
Perhaps US air has a policy that once someone is forced from a flight they cannot be rerouted. I don’t know. I’d be interested in hearing more but I think it’s likely they will just clam up and let it go away
Certainly that’s something that could have happened, but why would the airline feel the need to cover it up? I mean, if once the initial story had broke, a representative had said “The events as portrayed by the people in question do not accurately reflect what happened; they behaved angrily and insultingly” it wouldn’t let them off the hook but they’d certainly gain some support.
And that would also be a reasonable justification for their actions. Yet they’ve not mentioned it. I can think of plenty of good reasons why the airline would come out and say what their reasoning behind their decision is, and *none * why they would not. I think it’s reasonable, given that among other things, to assume there is no “hidden” reasoning.
Many companies have a “don’t talk about it” rule about incidents like this regardless of whether they are right or wrong. The idea is that even if they were partially right keeping the issue in the press by disputing the details amounts to more negative publicity.
I see conflicting reports all over the place about this incident. Who did what said what to who. Did they refuse to leave the plane? Is it possible they refused to fly US air and insisted US air book them on a competitor? I’ve seen it a hundred times. People who have been wronged will lie to make their case stronger. To be more the victim than they already are. Without other testimony from those involved I just can’t see making assumptions. I don’t see much reason to accept everything the Imams say as completely accurate. Thats not usually how humans work.
But that is an assumption based on ignorance, nothing wrong in pondering, but it is silly to use it as the only defense.
For example there is indeed good reasons why to claim ignorance on the facts before their interrogation, so I can say indeed that I don’t know. This however changes after they were interrogated for 3 hours.
And some photos I saw throw away the idea they were handcuffed, pointing once again to cooperation by the clerics.
It is not a judgment I’m pointing out, only that based on the evidence found by the authorities in place that there is a good reason to demand an explanation from the airline. And demand changes because what happened after the interrogation remains inexcusable after being confirmed OK. I’m waiting for the investigations to come to render a judgment on why it took place. The best ideas still point to a screwup (irrelevant that is race or asshole based) in the meantime it is silly to defend the airline with arguments from ignorance.
Here’s my opinion on why it’s not a PR disaster: enough people in the US are prejudiced against Muslims to make it not a disaster for the airline to discriminate against Muslims.
Which is why I’m not defending anything. I didn’t assume anything. I merely referenced my own experience about human nature and the possibilities.
I understand your point and you’re welcome to your opinion.
I see, so the reports that said they were cuffed must have been wrong but the one that said the airline refused to sell them tickets must be correct? What if the report you quoted and bolded was incorrect as well?
Who do you think has a right to demand an explanation? Your own quote supports the point I’ve trried to make several times. The authorities were brought in only to look for illegal activity. The issue of whether they could fly US air was a seperate issue. Do you at least recognize that?
As I said repeatedly, and your own post confirms, it’s two seperate issues.
The fact that no illegal activity was found doesn’t mean US air was completely wrong in not flying them. We simply don’t have enough details to decide.
Please just stop. It’s ridiculous. You’re so desperate to find fault with me you’re just not making sense. My pointing out that we don’t know is *not * defending the airline. My pointing out that there are other possible scenarios is also not defending the airline. My suggestions are made based on my own life experience of how these confrontations can go. I’ve worked with the public for years. Still I admit I don’t know without more data. If you’d like to think your assumption makes more sense then knock yourself out. You may be right and BFD.
I have seen it confirmed in other reports. (Really, you are trying to say a mayor newspaper gets that bit wrong? Then you need to provide evidence to the contrary or accept that your ideas are… well weak.)
I only recognize that there is no good reason why to make it a separate issue, because a solution for this to not to happen again will mean the airlines should not ignore the checks authorities performed.
Insisting they should be separate implies not finding a solution.
Locally, even the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota complained. Once again an explanation is demanded.
Fine, you should however not expect everyone not to notice your arguments are from ignorance. (regardless if you are not defending the airline)
The opinion I’m referring to is what you think it means. The conclusion you draw from the limited evidence is your opinion.
Several reports including the BBC news claimed they were cuffed and you didn’t mind claiming they were wrong. {without providing a link btw} At the same time you quoted another paper as it had to be true. You’re contradicting yourself. You can’t claim major news sources have it wrong while using Bloomberg.com to support your argument without looking goofy. Do you seriously believe major news sources never get the details wrong. Thats pretty unrealistic and naive.
I’m not sure what you mean by a solution but the fact is we’re discussing two different organizations. The authorities according to your own cite were brought in only to check for illegal activity. Do you get that? US air is a separate private business and makes a totally separate decision about who flies on their planes. In this case the fact that nothing illegal was discovered might influence the decision but is not the only factor. It may not be the most important factor. The airline is a merchant providing a service. If a customer gets out of hand in my store I may ask them to leave without having them arrested. If they refuse to leave I can call the police and have them arrested for trespassing. If the Imams did indeed refuse to exit the plane when asked by airline personnel and authorities were called that might be enough reason for US air to refuse to fly them afterwards. Since some reports said thats what happened you must admit it is a least possible.
There isn’t any solution. If this incident causes US Air to examine and revise their policies then great. I’m certainly in favor of the fight against prejudice and irrational fear. Based on my own life experience {not ignorance} I’m not convinced that this whole thing wasn’t blown out of proportion or in part instigated by the Imams themselves. I say that because I’ve seen it happen many many times.
and I’d love to hear one. Frankly I’m disappointed that more major news organizations haven’t followed up on this story. Prejudice, profiling, and irrational fears are serious issues that deserve to be looked at. Here’s a good vehicle.
In this case I’d like to hear from several other people in the boarding area.
Were they speaking angrily about US policy in Iraq before praying out loud to Allah? Were other passengers nervous or did the one dufus who wrote the note instigate the whole thing.
Did they refuse to leave the flight? {which I could totally understand} and is that why outside authorities were called and they were cuffed.
and what US air official decided to not let them fly other flights and why. Was it policy?Was it emotional based on an angry confrontation? Was it prejudice?
An honest examination of the facts from the real people involved would help us discern how much prejudice was involved and/or how much the Imams were telling the truth about the incident. I don’t assume they are. At this point I doubt we’ll find out.
Arguments from ignorance? I don’t even know what you’re talking about with this phrase. I suspect you don’t either. All I’ve done is point out that our facts are very limited and present some possible alternate scenarios to demonstrate that. I haven’t presented them as factual or even more probable. I’m not defending anybody or condemning anybody. These scenarios are based on my own life experience dealing with real people and how they sometimes react in certain situations. So please explain how any of that is an argument from ignorance.
That would be my opinion also. Not a good state of affairs, but it is probably the reason why people aren’t calling for the boardroom’s heads.
That said, there are still people who do see it as a huge blunder, so it’s still worthwhile for the airline to come and talk about a good reason they had to do what they did, if they had one.
The fight against terrorism is developing into Muslim vs non Muslim or Christian. That scares the hell out of me. I think more people ought to be discussing this incident and the larger issue of discrimination and profiling. There are people, Muslim and non Muslim who are willing and even eager to promote the rift between cultures and religions. Those people are a real danger and it needs to be brought out in the open. Other wise things will only get worse.
Really. I have what I feel is a more practical opinion, which doesn’t try to demonize Americans as having too much prejudice towards Muslims.
Instead, let’s consider who is buying airline tickets, and what the current situation in the US is for many people:
Casual Traveler: According to many articles I’ve read recently in such places as the WSJ, most people who fly casually are buying their tickets based on one thing and one only - price. People are choosing the tickets that have the least price and which are anywhere near their itinerary. These people often are not aware of all the nuances of which airline committed what atrocity on which subgroup, although they are very aware about things which impact them personally. So if ThirdReich Airlines forces all Jewish passengers to fly in the overhead bins, that doesn’t register with them (or they won’t notice it in the news) - but if a stewardess ever denied them a bag of peanuts, by the Baby Jesus, they won’t ever fly that airline again!
The Cruise Ship/Travel Package People: These people are often locked into a specific airline or flight to get to their destination. Most people would fly Aryan Nations Airlines so long as it got them to their Disney cruise ship on-time.
The Small-Time Business Traveler: The small-time business traveler is often at the mercy of their corporate travel department, who choose flights and airlines that are the absolute cheapest which barely fit their itinerary. These people have no say in their ticket choice, and if their company could save $0.50 by putting them on KillAllMuslimsAirlines, they would do so in a heartbeat.
The Big-Time Business Traveler: These people are the ones who fly all the time (like me) who have tons of FF programs they are in, often fly First Class, and pick airlines based on what fits into their schedule best so they aren’t inconvenienced and they get the most FF miles and perks. These people may have some flexibility to choose, but then we come to the next sub-issue…
Availability: A very large number of airports, thanks to the “hub” system, mandate you go to a hub to go anywhere. And with the steady consolidation and other shit going on in the airlines (caused, in part, by Muslim terrorists) there are limited airlines to take to places. If I want to fly to SLC from MCI and not have an enormous layover, I’m limited to Delta. If I want to go to CLT, it’s US Airways. ATL? Delta. Chicago? American, unless I want to go to the hinterlands of Midway. Sure, there’s ways to get to every other place, but it’s a question of how much can you actually do at most small-medium sized cities? And note too that very often the flights are listed but they fill up so fast that you essentially have just one choice to get from here to there without spending an extra day on the road. Many business tickets are bought at the last minute, when there’s only one flight left that’s even possible to take. Do I tell the client “Sorry, I can’t come to the contract signing in New York because the only airline I can take is US Airways, and they were mean to some people?” Yeah, a noble response, and one that gets your ass fired.
Finally, we have the last person - the morally conscious traveler, who can “punish” an airline for its misdeeds. Think about who this person is. This person most likely:
Is a casual traveler who follows the news rigorously
Is not going on vacation packages which lock them in
Is not flying for business (most likely, although small business owners/high-up people might have more flexibility)
Flies out of a major airport where they have lots of options
Buys their tickets early so they have flexibility when flights close
Is not opposed to taking flights at odd or strange times, with long layovers, if need be, to avoid a certain airline
Plus, which airlines do we ban, anyhow? Hasn’t Delta done a similar thing to Muslim passengers? Seems to me I remember an incident or two in 2002. What about American? Southwest? Continental? I seem to recall each of these having some sort of “ejected person acting kinda like a terrorist” incident. Who exactly is left to fly? Which airlines are innocent of wrongdoing? And how do you keep track of them all?
These, I submit, are the real reasons why the airlines know they can get away with treating people like this. They’re the same reasons the airlines can stay in that steady “race to the bottom” which they’ve been in since about 2001.
I can definitely understand a passenger being freaked out by six Muslims praying openly before boarding a U.S. airline. Whether you’d like to admit it or not, it was a group of Muslims who hijacked planes 5 years ago with the intent to murder Americans. If you want to talk about unfairly profiling and discriminating against people, we should start with the hijackers.
It sucks for the scholars that they were targeted simply because they are Middle Eastern. They can blame the hijackers for starting the reaction. Prior to 9/11, the imams would have been ignored or dismissed as religious nuts. Of course, 5 years ago I could have carried on my Chapstick, too. Guess what? Times have changed.
If USAir needs to learn a lesson about tolerance, the imams have another lesson to learn as well. A group of male Muslims boarding a U.S. plane is going to make passengers skittish. If they didn’t realize that fact already, then they need to get their heads out of their collective asses and get with the program. To call even more attention to themselves by facing the east and encanting a prayer before boarding was stupid and insensitive.
