Slavery 2000 (yes...real slaves)

Great Debates
1

Slavery in Africa
So in Sudan there are slaves. If you go to the web site up there, it gets pretty grim and detailed pretty damn quick.

From what I can gather, the Sudanese (muslim) gov’t is enslaving Christians in some sort of Jihad. The above organization is raising money, and then going over there and BUYING the freedom of the slaves.

I’m not going to sit in my office and condemn the guy who is at least doing SOMETHING, but I do think he may be doing more harm than good. If he keeps buying slaves, it seems to me that he increases the demand and more slave raids will follow.

I would think that the best way to stop this would be to raise the COST of slave traders and make it unprofitable, or at least too risky to stay in business. Since the government seems complicit in this, arming the slaves/victims seems the only way to go about this.
Am I wrong? Is it more effective to buy the slaves and then send them right back to where they will be targets of the same slave raiders than it is to arm the people and teach them to fight for their freedom?

I understand that it is probably a hell of a lot harder to raise money for this kind of operation, but all in all I do think it is the only way to end it.

Any thoughts?

(if anyone wants to correct any inacurrate portrayals of Sudan, please feel free)

2

Dramatic picture of purchasing slaves
And a specific overview of the situation in Sudan and the Slave redemption program.
http://www.csi-int.ch/csi-redemp_program.htm

There are more Q and As on the link.

3

Ugh, what a messy topic.

America tossing around its economic power has never been the high point of foriegn policy, but short of kicking some ass or completely ignoring it I think its the best bet. Trade sanctions, hell, lay the place to siege with our armed forces. But never give pissed off people guns, that’s the idea behind regulation in our own country and I’d like to think we aren’t hypocrites.

Anymore.

[The Microsoft case not withstanding.]

4

Before I respond to this, would you please share your opinion on the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution.

5

Always give pissed off people guns. You shouldn’t have a gun if you aren’t prepared to use it – you will just get yourself killed.

That sounds good to me. Give the people who are being enslaves guns if they want them. Or maybe a few books by Ghnadi would help if that is more their brand of Christianity.

6

As much as can be ascertained, the American Revolution was more luck on our part then brute force. England had other problems(ie-economic and other fighting) with other countries besides these piss-ant colonies. Our immense distance, equal firepower(NOT manpower), and foriegn aid gave rise to a victory.

The motivations for the other countries to aid in our independance were the same as for the Brits to stop our independance. Stuff. America was full of it.

Anyway, revolutions are great when killing people is the only alternative. We can stop something like this without arming a populous, without blowing shit up, etc etc. As satisfying as nuking commies might be, I think the world is starting, largely, to move beyond absolute physical force as a tool for action rather than a back-up from other, more powerful forces.

As well, we have nothing to gain economically from this, we would just be the good guys. Which is fine. Where the hell is the UN in all of this? [sorry, didn’t read the link] I still say, use economic power or lay conditional seige, but don’t just dropship M-16s to anyone.

And no cluster bombs! [yeeesss, mother] And be home before supper!!

Slavery is a serious issue, but so is killing people for whatever reason. Murder is murder, even if it is justifyable.

7

Sigh.

I wish you had chosen a less Xtian biased site. It’s a discredit to the issue.

Certainly a real problem, a horrible one even, but CSI clearly has some axes to grind. The monolithic vision of Muslims ignores the governments opponents and a number of other complexities. I don’t think this kind of rhetoric is the least bit helpful

Further, reading the Nigeria report I was struck by its inaccuracies. Since I’ve done business in Nigeria (not by the way recommended for the light-hearted) I can only say that the reporting is highly partisan and religously biased. The section on Jihad is just, well, ignorant. I’d say the same thing about an Islamic site obsessing about the Crusades. The report on Copts in Egypt is simply wrong-headed propaganda: my home base workwise is currently Egypt and I can say this report is at best a distortion.

All in all, this has all the signs of being self-centered western Xtian agitprop rather than objective analysis.

You can certainly do better than this.

On Sudan: may I recommend
Amnesty International reports:
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar98/afr54.htm

Now, as to the situation:

Sudan has experienced Civil War virtually since its independance.

I’m not convinced further infusions of arms would result in peace (although it might given a massive enough level, but then would that destabilize the region?, Woudld the cure be worse than the disease?), which is the only real solution to slaving – a byproduct of the civil war which while not unrelated to religion is not all about religion. The CSI lens is a distortion (every bit as much as the official Sudanese press distorts of course) which leaves out abuses by the folks you would want to arm, for example.

All in all, armed populations lead to warlordism, given the facts on the ground.

As for the slave repatriation/buing program…

I have to suspect that they are on the wrong path. Given what I have seen, personally, albeit briefly, from the Sudanese econonmy, infusions of currency given the liquidity issues, are just encouraging banditry and slave raiding. There’s not really a labor shortage to drive slavery per se, so I gather it is as much a question of war captives and punishing populations. The CSI folks seem to be injecting cash into the equation from a misplaced ideological hostility to Islam (I know that Copts I’ve chatted with have a dim view of these folks – but can’t say if that is for my consumption or not.)

Well, there you have it. I don’t know where I stand on the operations, but I would encourage you to get real infos.

8

I just want to clarify…
I didn’t really “pick” this site to be the “one” to illustrate the problem. This was the first real look I had at it. The direction I was looking to go in this thread was more along the lines of:

Is it better to buy a slave and set them free or to arm them and let them keep themselves free. (sort of a military take off of the fish thing…)

I recognized in the OP that there was a good possibility that this site was slanted against Sudan, that is why I invited others to clarify anything they see that is not accurate. Thank you for your input.
Another clarification.

I see this as a personal thing, not a U.S.A. thing. I’m not talking about what the US should do, I’m asking what would be more effective from a personal level. For example…This guy buys a truckload of AK-47s, passes them out among the slave relatives and starts an uprising to free the slaves by force instead of buying them and setting them free.
For me…there really is no choice if I was over there. Fight or be a slave doesn’t leave me any options.

9

It seems to me that they (CSI) are basically paying people to enslave other people. Buying slaves isn’t going to solve anything; the Sudanese are going to just use the money to buy more slaves. I think that CSI’s actions are making the situation worse. Just as the US has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists, so should CSI have a policy of not paying slavers.

10

I seriously doubt that CSI could possibly buy all the slaves in Sudan. Right now, they’re only giving the slave traders more business. And they’re releasing the freed slaves back into Sudan where they’re just going to get captured again. They might as well just set their money on fire for all the god it will do.
It seems that the only way to put a stop to this is to either give the Cristians a means to defend themselves or bomb the Sudanese government into oblivion.

11

C. seems to know what’s up, and I’d definitely maintain: guns out of the back of a pick-up truck or drop-shipped courtesey of some armed forces isn’t going to solve any problems.

That is my personal opinion. Had I a ton of guns, I wouldn’t hand them out. However, in the situation you pose, whether to arm or to try and free only, I guess I’d probably agree: arm the basards. Then run. No way I’d want to be a part of that fight. Or see the aftermath.

12

CSI is wrong, and so wrong it is unbeleiveable. It is like buying “all the Ivory and burning it” to get rid of poachers. What CSI needs to do is take that money and hire some good mercs who will go around, freeing the slaves by force- thus making it uneconomical. Or get the USA to embargo the nations involved, until they stop.

13

Human Bondage - History’s Mystories. Stuff on slavery, sorry for late notice. It’ll probably re-run.

14

It’s wrong to turn them loose to get captured and sold again. We should bring them over here and put them to work - hell, we’re paying for them. Let their children be free, maybe even the slaves after they have worked a few years. I’m sure they would be happy to build churches or go knocking on doors soliciting donations for whatever Christian cause bought them.

15

Danielinthewolvesden
We are in 100% agreement. I guess this would be somewhat along the lines of what Perot attempted to do back in the late 70’s with the American hostages in Tehran.

16

Well, I’m no Sudan specialist, my knowledge is only in passing but there are some things I want to correct here:

(1) The Civil War in Sudan, although largely between an Xtian and animist south and a largely Muslim north, is not wholly a religious war. Some posters here seem to be under that misapprehension. There are also Muslim resistance groups to what is essentially a military dictatorship. As such all this talk of “giving the Christians a means of defending themselves” badly mischaracterizes the conflict. That’s one reason why the original site cited is so very misleading – in fact it strikes me as a highly prejudiced, anti-Islamic POV. We don’t need more prejudice added to what’s already around.

Perhaps arming resistance movements (both Xtian and Muslim) to overthrow the military dictatorship is a valid goal. Personally I’ve nothing against that, but I’m not sure its a working solution and adding more arms to the area may just continue warlordism.

(2) Fight or be a slave: Easy for us to say. Not so easy to do. I understand where you are coming from Freedom, however I don’t know this is in any way realistic. Randlover and I agree on something for once. I might add however that the US is in fact supporting Garang, the main southern resistance leader and to my knowledge --scuttlebutt I hear-- has tried to help keep the resistance block together. The problem is that many of these folks (xtian southern restistnace forces aka warlords) are as much part of the problem as the solution.

(4) Buying the slaves: I completely agree with those posters, including Freedom, who suspect CSI (among other organizations) is not helping but actually feeding slave raiding.

I suspect, given the poverty of Sudan --hard to make a rich country with 50 years of civil war-- that what these guys are going is making kidnapping profitable.

Hiring mercenaries is also a terrible idea: you want more armed groups moving about in a civil war adding to the chaos? What kind of control is there going to be. What use is that going to be for the Southerners when a pissed off government sends its migs down to bomb again. That’s not going to do anything useful at all.

An embargo is not going to happen. (1) its a civil war (2) gum arabica.

I suspect the real choices are
(1) try to force all parties to the negotiating table through diplomatic pressure
(2) fully fund and arm the most credible resistance groups to force an armed solution the issue – Afghanistan however does not encourage me to believe this is going to easily result in something positive. However, this way, if you are at least funding and helping to create an organized and disciplined force, you can reduce warlordism etc.

Frankly, if everyone is really so concerned, give to Doctors without Frontiers to help fund treatment of the war wounded in the south and organizations helping refugees.

Finally, Badtz, go crawl under whatever rock you emerged from. It’s not your money in any case.

17

A rock? That should be a bridge, Colon.

18

Call me crazy, but you seem to be harboring an Anti-Christian grudge in this thread. As far as I can tell, no one but you is really paying attention to the religions on either side except as a way to label the groups. Yet you keep feeeling the need to come in and slam them.

I could care less if it was Christians who were enslaving the Muslims. I think slaves should have the opportunity to be free, by force if neccesary.(as it almost always is)
Aynnrandlover

I think you are being a little disengenous about the American revolution. We got our butts handed to us for a good part of the war, and victory was anything but assured.

However…your chances of winning have nothing to do with the justification of your fight. We fought our war over taxes, no representation and minor (compared to slavery) infringements.

Check it out Here. Once you get past the most quoted sections it is actually a list of grievences.
So if we had lost the war, would the fight have been any less justified?

19

Then you’re crazy. I’m responding to the originally cited site and also the mis-characterization: the slave taking is not soley of christtians but also of anyone in the opposition, be they Muslims (not the right kind conveniently enough, the right kind of course don’t oppose you) or animists.

20

I was also wondering whether what CSI was doing was actually encouraging the slave trade by increasing demand. However it does make a huge difference to the people they buy as they have already been captured. Maybe a solution is to combine the two approaches, to buy and free the slaves and then send them back to their homes with weapons and the training to use them.